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I dont know what you mean with better, my two sons are top performers in their school and the school network is top 3% performing in NY state. They are in schoo

I dont know what you mean with better, my two sons are top performers in their school and the school network is top 3% performing in NY state. They are in school at 7:45 latest each morning. There are many benefits to getting an early start in the morning as ling as you have had a long nights sleep. So i would like to see the base if those studies as they dont reflect the reality and statistics i know of. Edit to those who claim it's anecdotal: Their school network is Success Academy. And I was originally responding to the claim that you can't be fresh as a kid at 7 if you go to bed in proper time which is simply wrong. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-popping-success-of-success-academy-charter-schools-in-nyc/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-po...

_coveredInBees 7y ago
Refuting the results of scientific studies with anecdotal evidence is not going to win any arguments. Surely you must understand how these scientific studies work?
- ThomPete 7y ago
  Its not anectdotal and i would urge you to point to the scientific studies so we can debate their methodology and “scientific” base. I’m too old to just take these kind of studies as science without looking at the details. Now you dont have to take my examples for more than they are but they sure contradict the claims being made in this thread and onna state level.
  - _coveredInBees 7y ago
    Someone else already replied with links so I'm not going to rehash here, but your parent post was the very definition of anecdote. You tried to refute entire studies and the current scientific consensus with a single example of how your kids do great academically despite waking up early for school. That is literally what an anecdote is.
    - ThomPete 7y ago
      Here is exactly what I wrote: , my two sons are top performers in their school and the school network is top 3% performing in NY state. I wasn't just talking about my two sons but about the school network in New York state. That's not anecdotal what so ever. Here are the actual results from Success Academy: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-popping-success-of-success-academy-charter-schools-in-nyc/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-po... How is that anecdotal?
      - boomboomsubban 7y ago
        "This one school performs well and it has a start time before 8" is anecdotal evidence. Only one school's performance or start time is considered.
        ThomPete 7y ago
        Not single school, school network! I don't know how more clear I can be.
        boomboomsubban 7y ago
        "This one school network..." doesn't stop it from being an anecdote.
        ThomPete 7y ago
        It does when it results are compared to the entire new york state and its consistently in the top.
        jameshart 7y ago
        What’s your control? Do other schools in or out of the top 3% have earlier or later start times? How do you account for confounds like socioeconomics and demographics? If you don’t, what you have is an anecdote, not evidence. Others are pointing you to studies that look at real data and apply statistical rigor. You are arguing that your knowledge of a single example outweighs that evidence. That is precisely what people mean when they accuse you of using ‘anecdata’.
  - guiambros 7y ago
    Why We Sleep [1], by Matthew Walker, PhD. Page 92: "Adolescents face two other harmful challenges in their struggle to obtain sufficient sleep as their brains continue to develop. The first is a change in their circadian rhythm. The second is early school start times." Also: "... the circadian rhythm of a young child runs on an earlier schedule. Children therefore become sleepy earlier and wake up earlier than their adult parents. Adolescent teenagers, however, have a different circadian rhythm from their young siblings. During puberty, the timing of the suprachiasmatic nucleus is shifted progressively forward: a change that is common across all adolescents, irrespective of culture of geography." It goes on to explain why this is the case, and the impact on your sleep schedule. Also page 308-16 there's an entire chapter on Sleep and Education, and the problem of schools starting progressively early, mostly for the convenience of society at large, rather than a net benefit of the kids. The book has been largely discussed on HN before; definitely worth reading. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501144316 https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501...
    - aloukissas 7y ago
      100% this - I read the Why We Sleep book earlier this year and this quote immediately came to my head when I read this news.
    - yilugurlu 7y ago
      I just came here to see this citation :)
    - ThomPete 7y ago
      Nothing in that contradicts what i wrote, it supports it.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- pjkundert 7y ago
  I love scientific studies, illustrating the standard distribution or exponential long-tail nature of whatever biological/ethnical/identity based feature they are studying. Then, I hope that everyone makes the obvious blunder of categorizing the target population according to the results of the study. Because it’s “scientific”, am-I-rite? Finally, I harvest the crackerjack-smart, hard-working people from the (now) under-appreciated group. My team wins; the scientism-ists get the lazy offspring of the wealthy elites protected by “science”. Everyone wins!
freddie_mercury 7y ago
Your single anecdote does not outweigh the many, many scientific studies that been conducted on this subject (or any other subject for that matter). I would have that would be obvious to a HN reader.
- ThomPete 7y ago
  My single anecdote isnt single at all. We are talking about several schools using same method with kids in the top 3% on average. Show me the research and we can debate it, until then the primary problem in the us is that parent put their kids to bed too late.
  - cosmotron 7y ago
    Here is NPR's article on it: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/12/12/676118782/sleepless-no-more-in-seattle-later-school-start-time-pays-off-for-teens https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/12/12/6761187... Here is the journal article referenced: https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/12/eaau6200 https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/12/eaau6200 Here is the CDC's summary referencing further studies: https://www.cdc.gov/features/school-start-times/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/features/school-start-times/index.html
    - ThomPete 7y ago
      Thanks, I read it: 1) The study doesn't conclude what the parent was claiming and what you seem to think it's claiming. 2) It's only for high school students and its sample is pretty small. 3) It actually supports my point of enough sleep more than anything else which seems to be completely ignored of course. 4) Here is my evidence https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-popping-success-of-success-academy-charter-schools-in-nyc/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-po... my sons are Success Academy. What do you suggest I conclude from that? 5) Just saying something is science isn't enough and just saying it's science because someone did some studies isn't enough either. I read through the paper and it wasn't even close to being anything but a very small sample especially when you factor in that two different schools yielded two different results. So perhaps rather than just scream science, it would help if people took a deep breath and looked into what they hold in front of them as science cause that wasn't it. 6) I was responding to a claim about not being fully awake in the morning with a simple observation that if you go to bed early you are not going to be tired in the morning. That was then challenged with a completely new challenge which was that kids perform better when they are in school later to which I know for a fact that's not true and from the article you are referencing that's not what's being said either.
selectodude 7y ago
Getting out of bed before ten no matter when I went to sleep was a mortal struggle until I was probably 25. Now I’m gassed by 11 and up by 6. The research has shown that circadian rhythms change with age.
- brodie 7y ago
  I've noticed the same thing. In my twenties waking up before ten was extremely difficult and made getting into work stressful every morning. But now in my thirties I find myself awake when the sun rises without issue.
  - arpa 7y ago
    My lights are out at 11, but getting up at 7 is difficult still. On the other hand, it was straight impossible to do at 25.
- j8014 7y ago
  I fall asleep around 2-3am every night and am up at 7:15am during the week. I'm 39. I've been a night owl since I was a teen, and even today I have to force myself to sleep. During vacations it becomes extreme, I easily stay up till 6-7am and sleep till 12 or so - which seems to be ideal as I always revert to those times given 3-4 days where I'm not required to be up early. Adjusting my schedule back to "normal" involves skipping sleep for a night.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> I dont know what you mean with better, my two sons are top performers in their school and ... presumably they, then, can explain to you the difference between anecdote and data.
- ThomPete 7y ago
  They will first have to teach you the difference between taking part in a sentence out its full context and then actually being intellectually honest and not just strawman them. One of the first things I taught them. A school network applied to all of New York state is hardly an anecdote and it's frankly telling how quick you and others where to jump onto that idea. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-popping-success-of-success-academy-charter-schools-in-nyc/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-po...
  - eitally 7y ago
    Look, when I was in high school we had our first period starting at 7:07am, and the school overall was released at 2:15pm. Plenty of kids, myself included, performed just fine. But, that doesn't mean it's physiologically optimal, and it also doesn't mean it's practical for families to get kids in bed at an appropriate time. Anecdotally, I know lots of families whose middle schoolers are regularly up until 10-11pm doing homework. This is particularly true for those kids participating in time-consuming extra-curriculars. It's probably physiologically accurate that later start times are better for children. This bill is research-backed. It also makes things harder for parents who will then need to find long before-care options or start their own commutes later. Also anecdotally, I have two children in elementary school, who also play competitive soccer with training 4 days/wk. Soccer is typically 1.5hr at a time, and either 4:30-6pm or 5-6:30pm. Training fields are 15-20min drive from our house. School gets out at 2:15, but we have to pick up our 2yo from daycare before the older ones get home (no bussing service because we're <1mi from the school). The result is that the older ones get home, unpack their backpacks, change into soccer gear, have time for a snack and perhaps 15-30 minutes for homework (besides written homework, they also have to read 30 minutes every day) before leaving for soccer. My wife thankfully works from home and is able to handle the afternoon routine after having shifted her work schedule 3 timezones (5am-2pm). I pick everyone up from soccer practice and then we get home, shower and eat dinner from around 6:45-7:45. Then it's time to finish homework and reading. I'm lucky they get to go to bed by 8:30-9:00pm. Then I wake them up at 6:15 to get ready for band practice at school @7:15. This is an anecdote about an 8 & 10 year old in the bay area, and we have excellent work situations (I work for a flexible tech company, and my wife works a shifted schedule from home). If we both worked traditional 8-5 schedules, the majority of what our kids are able to do now would not be possible: they'd go to YMCA before care on campus around 7am and then to aftercare until 5:30pm. Sports would be out of the question unless we made arrangements with friends. There would be no decompression time after school and before home/family/activity time.

_coveredInBees 7y ago

Refuting the results of scientific studies with anecdotal evidence is not going to win any arguments. Surely you must understand how these scientific studies work?

ThomPete 7y ago
Its not anectdotal and i would urge you to point to the scientific studies so we can debate their methodology and “scientific” base. I’m too old to just take these kind of studies as science without looking at the details. Now you dont have to take my examples for more than they are but they sure contradict the claims being made in this thread and onna state level.
- _coveredInBees 7y ago
  Someone else already replied with links so I'm not going to rehash here, but your parent post was the very definition of anecdote. You tried to refute entire studies and the current scientific consensus with a single example of how your kids do great academically despite waking up early for school. That is literally what an anecdote is.
  - ThomPete 7y ago
    Here is exactly what I wrote: , my two sons are top performers in their school and the school network is top 3% performing in NY state. I wasn't just talking about my two sons but about the school network in New York state. That's not anecdotal what so ever. Here are the actual results from Success Academy: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-popping-success-of-success-academy-charter-schools-in-nyc/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-po... How is that anecdotal?
    - boomboomsubban 7y ago
      "This one school performs well and it has a start time before 8" is anecdotal evidence. Only one school's performance or start time is considered.
      - ThomPete 7y ago
        Not single school, school network! I don't know how more clear I can be.
        boomboomsubban 7y ago
        "This one school network..." doesn't stop it from being an anecdote.
        ThomPete 7y ago
        It does when it results are compared to the entire new york state and its consistently in the top.
        jameshart 7y ago
        What’s your control? Do other schools in or out of the top 3% have earlier or later start times? How do you account for confounds like socioeconomics and demographics? If you don’t, what you have is an anecdote, not evidence. Others are pointing you to studies that look at real data and apply statistical rigor. You are arguing that your knowledge of a single example outweighs that evidence. That is precisely what people mean when they accuse you of using ‘anecdata’.
- guiambros 7y ago
  Why We Sleep [1], by Matthew Walker, PhD. Page 92: "Adolescents face two other harmful challenges in their struggle to obtain sufficient sleep as their brains continue to develop. The first is a change in their circadian rhythm. The second is early school start times." Also: "... the circadian rhythm of a young child runs on an earlier schedule. Children therefore become sleepy earlier and wake up earlier than their adult parents. Adolescent teenagers, however, have a different circadian rhythm from their young siblings. During puberty, the timing of the suprachiasmatic nucleus is shifted progressively forward: a change that is common across all adolescents, irrespective of culture of geography." It goes on to explain why this is the case, and the impact on your sleep schedule. Also page 308-16 there's an entire chapter on Sleep and Education, and the problem of schools starting progressively early, mostly for the convenience of society at large, rather than a net benefit of the kids. The book has been largely discussed on HN before; definitely worth reading. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501144316 https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501...
  - aloukissas 7y ago
    100% this - I read the Why We Sleep book earlier this year and this quote immediately came to my head when I read this news.
  - yilugurlu 7y ago
    I just came here to see this citation :)
  - ThomPete 7y ago
    Nothing in that contradicts what i wrote, it supports it.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
pjkundert 7y ago
I love scientific studies, illustrating the standard distribution or exponential long-tail nature of whatever biological/ethnical/identity based feature they are studying. Then, I hope that everyone makes the obvious blunder of categorizing the target population according to the results of the study. Because it’s “scientific”, am-I-rite? Finally, I harvest the crackerjack-smart, hard-working people from the (now) under-appreciated group. My team wins; the scientism-ists get the lazy offspring of the wealthy elites protected by “science”. Everyone wins!

freddie_mercury 7y ago

Your single anecdote does not outweigh the many, many scientific studies that been conducted on this subject (or any other subject for that matter). I would have that would be obvious to a HN reader.

ThomPete 7y ago
My single anecdote isnt single at all. We are talking about several schools using same method with kids in the top 3% on average. Show me the research and we can debate it, until then the primary problem in the us is that parent put their kids to bed too late.
- cosmotron 7y ago
  Here is NPR's article on it: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/12/12/676118782/sleepless-no-more-in-seattle-later-school-start-time-pays-off-for-teens https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/12/12/6761187... Here is the journal article referenced: https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/12/eaau6200 https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/12/eaau6200 Here is the CDC's summary referencing further studies: https://www.cdc.gov/features/school-start-times/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/features/school-start-times/index.html
  - ThomPete 7y ago
    Thanks, I read it: 1) The study doesn't conclude what the parent was claiming and what you seem to think it's claiming. 2) It's only for high school students and its sample is pretty small. 3) It actually supports my point of enough sleep more than anything else which seems to be completely ignored of course. 4) Here is my evidence https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-popping-success-of-success-academy-charter-schools-in-nyc/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-po... my sons are Success Academy. What do you suggest I conclude from that? 5) Just saying something is science isn't enough and just saying it's science because someone did some studies isn't enough either. I read through the paper and it wasn't even close to being anything but a very small sample especially when you factor in that two different schools yielded two different results. So perhaps rather than just scream science, it would help if people took a deep breath and looked into what they hold in front of them as science cause that wasn't it. 6) I was responding to a claim about not being fully awake in the morning with a simple observation that if you go to bed early you are not going to be tired in the morning. That was then challenged with a completely new challenge which was that kids perform better when they are in school later to which I know for a fact that's not true and from the article you are referencing that's not what's being said either.

selectodude 7y ago

Getting out of bed before ten no matter when I went to sleep was a mortal struggle until I was probably 25. Now I’m gassed by 11 and up by 6. The research has shown that circadian rhythms change with age.

brodie 7y ago
I've noticed the same thing. In my twenties waking up before ten was extremely difficult and made getting into work stressful every morning. But now in my thirties I find myself awake when the sun rises without issue.
- arpa 7y ago
  My lights are out at 11, but getting up at 7 is difficult still. On the other hand, it was straight impossible to do at 25.
j8014 7y ago
I fall asleep around 2-3am every night and am up at 7:15am during the week. I'm 39. I've been a night owl since I was a teen, and even today I have to force myself to sleep. During vacations it becomes extreme, I easily stay up till 6-7am and sleep till 12 or so - which seems to be ideal as I always revert to those times given 3-4 days where I'm not required to be up early. Adjusting my schedule back to "normal" involves skipping sleep for a night.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> I dont know what you mean with better, my two sons are top performers in their school and ... presumably they, then, can explain to you the difference between anecdote and data.

ThomPete 7y ago
They will first have to teach you the difference between taking part in a sentence out its full context and then actually being intellectually honest and not just strawman them. One of the first things I taught them. A school network applied to all of New York state is hardly an anecdote and it's frankly telling how quick you and others where to jump onto that idea. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-popping-success-of-success-academy-charter-schools-in-nyc/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/more-on-the-phenomenal-eye-po...
- eitally 7y ago
  Look, when I was in high school we had our first period starting at 7:07am, and the school overall was released at 2:15pm. Plenty of kids, myself included, performed just fine. But, that doesn't mean it's physiologically optimal, and it also doesn't mean it's practical for families to get kids in bed at an appropriate time. Anecdotally, I know lots of families whose middle schoolers are regularly up until 10-11pm doing homework. This is particularly true for those kids participating in time-consuming extra-curriculars. It's probably physiologically accurate that later start times are better for children. This bill is research-backed. It also makes things harder for parents who will then need to find long before-care options or start their own commutes later. Also anecdotally, I have two children in elementary school, who also play competitive soccer with training 4 days/wk. Soccer is typically 1.5hr at a time, and either 4:30-6pm or 5-6:30pm. Training fields are 15-20min drive from our house. School gets out at 2:15, but we have to pick up our 2yo from daycare before the older ones get home (no bussing service because we're <1mi from the school). The result is that the older ones get home, unpack their backpacks, change into soccer gear, have time for a snack and perhaps 15-30 minutes for homework (besides written homework, they also have to read 30 minutes every day) before leaving for soccer. My wife thankfully works from home and is able to handle the afternoon routine after having shifted her work schedule 3 timezones (5am-2pm). I pick everyone up from soccer practice and then we get home, shower and eat dinner from around 6:45-7:45. Then it's time to finish homework and reading. I'm lucky they get to go to bed by 8:30-9:00pm. Then I wake them up at 6:15 to get ready for band practice at school @7:15. This is an anecdote about an 8 & 10 year old in the bay area, and we have excellent work situations (I work for a flexible tech company, and my wife works a shifted schedule from home). If we both worked traditional 8-5 schedules, the majority of what our kids are able to do now would not be possible: they'd go to YMCA before care on campus around 7am and then to aftercare until 5:30pm. Sports would be out of the question unless we made arrangements with friends. There would be no decompression time after school and before home/family/activity time.