6 ms·

> We all kind of rolled our eyes and went along with the exercise. I now use it to great effect almost daily in both personal and professional relationships. R

by _def 7y ago

> We all kind of rolled our eyes and went along with the exercise. I now use it to great effect almost daily in both personal and professional relationships. Reactions like that tell me once again that a lot of people really underestimate simple stuff like this. I hope that in the future simple and useful psychology topics will find their way into our schools so that the acceptance and understanding for the usefulness will increase (hopefully).

chapium 7y ago
Reactions like this tell me people despise corporate indoctrination.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
donw 7y ago
This would require a large body of educators both equipped and empowered to educate, coupled with parents invested in the success of their children. My experience in at least the California educational system -- where both of my parents were teachers, with Mom also serving on the school board for some time -- gives me little hope that this will ever be the case.
novok 7y ago
When you actually read the book, you find it has a very awkward way of speaking which can induce eyerolls.
- megous 7y ago
  Though if you just follow the reasons behind the four points in the article and implement them your way, it would be fine too, no? It's like with lots of these communication systems. (P.E.T. is similar, but more oriented at communicatuion with children) The authors have some specific examples of situations, and how they'd communicate, but it's all driven by some core principles and goals, and as long as you're also driven by and mind those all the time, you'll be fine using your own language, or the language of your peer.
  - bhy 7y ago
    Could you provide a link towards "P.E.T."? The term is not googleble..
    - jhncls 7y ago
      Parent Effectiveness Training: https://www.gordontraining.com/parent-programs/parent-effectiveness-training-p-e-t/ https://www.gordontraining.com/parent-programs/parent-effect... https://www.parentskills.com.au/blog/pet-page-summary-skills-and-principles-parent-effectiveness-training-pet https://www.parentskills.com.au/blog/pet-page-summary-skills...
      - bhy 7y ago
        Thank you!
- atoav 7y ago
  I read it ages ago in it’s German translation and while I remember there was a bit of awkwardness, I always understood it as an exaggeration for the sake of the example. My main takeaway was not the kind of language described in the book, but the thoughts behind it: the effects of your phrasing on how your message is received etc. I think I mostly use the ideas from the book without thinking at this point — and in order for that to work you most likely will have to find your own way.
- Tomte 7y ago
  It drove me up the wall and I didn't finish it. All this "if you answered c, e and f, we are not of the same opinion" feels passive-aggressive to me. The whole thing feels manipulative to me. It makes me think that people try an insincere way of talking to me, in order to manipulate my feelings and reaction. I've had huge discussions with friends who try to live the book, and neither of us could make the other see their point. One of their examples was "My boyfriend likes to go DJing, but sometimes I'd love for him to stay home and cuddle with me. So I clearly tell him that him leaving makes me feel alone and that I would like some warmth. But I don't tell him what to do, to stay at home, for example. I only talk about my own perception and feelings." – "Yes, that's great, but in communication there is the level of pragmatics above pure logical semantics. And you telling your boyfriend that him leaving makes you feel very alone is just another way of saying 'please don't go'".
  - din-9 7y ago
    The linked page has four steps, the last of which is "make requests".
    - avar 7y ago
      That's what makes it passive-aggressive, it can be perceived as three steps of manipulation to get to a fourth step. If your ultimate intent is to make a request, then make a request.
      - TeMPOraL 7y ago
        Ending at third step and leaving request unstated sounds highly manipulative to me, because the other party now has to figure out what you really want. Going straight to the request makes the tone do all the work - whether the exact request is even registered by the other party, or whether they feel forced to abandon their plans, all depends on how you voice your words. Perhaps people are different, but I'm of the type that I absolutely want to hear both what you want and reasoning why you want it, and I tend to pick up and overanalyze the tone if you leave either part unstated.
pfranz 7y ago
I think the skepticism is the "quick fix" "trendy" packages that get peddled to businesses or show up in pop culture--like Power Poses or The Secret. Nonviolent Communication isn't the greatest name, either.
- _jal 7y ago
  Everything ends up being packaged as some get-<blank>-quick scheme in the US, including how to peddle get-<blank>-quick schemes. Don't blame the idea for the hucksters.
  - endymi0n 7y ago
    Heuristics in action. I can‘t possibly number all the different BS methodologies and frameworks that were supposed to do something, every time. Applicable and actually highly successful ones like NVC are few and far between. Can‘t blame anyone who smells a fad on hearing it the first time, but I‘m also using NVC by now whenever I need to untangle difficult conversations.
    - ngold 7y ago
      Violent communication is hitting someone to make a point. The name of this is insulting.
      - DEADBEEFC0FFEE 7y ago
        Violence isn't always physical.
        tomashubelbauer 7y ago
        I agree with this but I still think it is a bad name. Maybe something like non-aggressive communication would fare better?
        homonculus1 7y ago
        Violence is always physical, by definition. Sometimes the word is also used for poetic effect though.
roenxi 7y ago
The eye rolling is often justified. The value of something like NVC is having an entire framework for managing relationships (and it is a fantastic framework, havn't seen a better one yet). However a lot of vocal people are happy to take the words and not join the pieces together properly. There are a lot of mistakes in interpreting NVC that quickly lead to eye-roll-worthy corporate inductions. The nuance is critical and complicated. Eg, I'd assume an average person trying to talk about NVC either thinks: 1) Thinks it is a tool to use after someone else is already upset. 2) Hasn't understood it and thinks that the point is to appease someone who is angry by not being aggressive.
swsieber 7y ago
I instead hope that parents start teaching it to children. While my online decorum has major room for improvements, I feel like I'm pretty conscientious in my in person interactions and gained a lot of that through explicit instructions from my parents.
pyrale 7y ago
This happens mostly because orgs are stuck in confrontational, or at least non-cooperative ways of working, and expect that communication tools will somehow make it acceptable. When the tool is used, people soon realize that they won't get what they need, and that they now have to endure a speciific ceremonial.
otaviokz 7y ago
To be fair, I believe a big part of this kind of reaction often comes from being pushed trendy "easy fix for something important" from HR or top management quite frequently.
acollins1331 7y ago
Or maybe when you pick your words carefully to get desired reactions it is manipulative. I'd rather not manipulate others, it leads to me oftentimes sticking my foot in my mouth, but at least others know what I am thinking and I know I'm not lying to others for personal gain.
- SubuSS 7y ago
  A few points Re speaking your mind: - Talking is an incomplete way capturing your thoughts. (Gets progressively worse with videos / phone calls / emails / telegrams ...). You will never capture all you're thinking in a few words. So IMO speaking your mind is essentially blurting what's floating on the top rather than actually speaking your mind. You probably can see how that can strain a conversation. - Believe it or not, Communication is a 2 way problem: It doesn't matter even if you perfectly capture it, if the other party ain't listening. Or is only listening to cherry pick metaphors to rant on. Even if they are listening, the first few aggro sentences (or some that are sandwiched) can set them off - making them non-receptive to the rest. Again another reason people try to pick their words carefully so that they can put their best foot forward. -A world where clairvoyance is the norm is where speaking your mind may make sense: Otherwise you are one of the few who is baring his soul every time while others are picking a time and place. Good or bad, I am sure you see this puts you at a great disadvantage. - When bad news is delivered, we all process it differently. One of the common mechanics is attacking the messenger in some way or other OR trying to blame the messenger for delivering it badly. Again something to keep in mind when talking. - Life is grey: If you want to define careful words as manipulation, that's polarizing the situation. In reality it could be manipulation or just plain old 'being careful'. I am not going to be able to convince you in one post :) neither can I tell you how to live your life. These have been some of my observations that moved me from a 'speak your mind' person to a lot more 'reasonable' person model. So HTH!
  - anoncorpprog 7y ago
    This is the most convincing argument I've heard yet on why speaking your mind can lead to dissatisfactory outcomes. coming from a speak your mind type of person, this is the most compelling perspective I've seen yet.

by _def 7y ago

chapium 7y ago

Reactions like this tell me people despise corporate indoctrination.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

donw 7y ago

This would require a large body of educators both equipped and empowered to educate, coupled with parents invested in the success of their children. My experience in at least the California educational system -- where both of my parents were teachers, with Mom also serving on the school board for some time -- gives me little hope that this will ever be the case.

novok 7y ago

When you actually read the book, you find it has a very awkward way of speaking which can induce eyerolls.

megous 7y ago
Though if you just follow the reasons behind the four points in the article and implement them your way, it would be fine too, no? It's like with lots of these communication systems. (P.E.T. is similar, but more oriented at communicatuion with children) The authors have some specific examples of situations, and how they'd communicate, but it's all driven by some core principles and goals, and as long as you're also driven by and mind those all the time, you'll be fine using your own language, or the language of your peer.
- bhy 7y ago
  Could you provide a link towards "P.E.T."? The term is not googleble..
  - jhncls 7y ago
    Parent Effectiveness Training: https://www.gordontraining.com/parent-programs/parent-effectiveness-training-p-e-t/ https://www.gordontraining.com/parent-programs/parent-effect... https://www.parentskills.com.au/blog/pet-page-summary-skills-and-principles-parent-effectiveness-training-pet https://www.parentskills.com.au/blog/pet-page-summary-skills...
    - bhy 7y ago
      Thank you!
atoav 7y ago
I read it ages ago in it’s German translation and while I remember there was a bit of awkwardness, I always understood it as an exaggeration for the sake of the example. My main takeaway was not the kind of language described in the book, but the thoughts behind it: the effects of your phrasing on how your message is received etc. I think I mostly use the ideas from the book without thinking at this point — and in order for that to work you most likely will have to find your own way.
Tomte 7y ago
It drove me up the wall and I didn't finish it. All this "if you answered c, e and f, we are not of the same opinion" feels passive-aggressive to me. The whole thing feels manipulative to me. It makes me think that people try an insincere way of talking to me, in order to manipulate my feelings and reaction. I've had huge discussions with friends who try to live the book, and neither of us could make the other see their point. One of their examples was "My boyfriend likes to go DJing, but sometimes I'd love for him to stay home and cuddle with me. So I clearly tell him that him leaving makes me feel alone and that I would like some warmth. But I don't tell him what to do, to stay at home, for example. I only talk about my own perception and feelings." – "Yes, that's great, but in communication there is the level of pragmatics above pure logical semantics. And you telling your boyfriend that him leaving makes you feel very alone is just another way of saying 'please don't go'".
- din-9 7y ago
  The linked page has four steps, the last of which is "make requests".
  - avar 7y ago
    That's what makes it passive-aggressive, it can be perceived as three steps of manipulation to get to a fourth step. If your ultimate intent is to make a request, then make a request.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      Ending at third step and leaving request unstated sounds highly manipulative to me, because the other party now has to figure out what you really want. Going straight to the request makes the tone do all the work - whether the exact request is even registered by the other party, or whether they feel forced to abandon their plans, all depends on how you voice your words. Perhaps people are different, but I'm of the type that I absolutely want to hear both what you want and reasoning why you want it, and I tend to pick up and overanalyze the tone if you leave either part unstated.

pfranz 7y ago

I think the skepticism is the "quick fix" "trendy" packages that get peddled to businesses or show up in pop culture--like Power Poses or The Secret. Nonviolent Communication isn't the greatest name, either.

_jal 7y ago
Everything ends up being packaged as some get-<blank>-quick scheme in the US, including how to peddle get-<blank>-quick schemes. Don't blame the idea for the hucksters.
- endymi0n 7y ago
  Heuristics in action. I can‘t possibly number all the different BS methodologies and frameworks that were supposed to do something, every time. Applicable and actually highly successful ones like NVC are few and far between. Can‘t blame anyone who smells a fad on hearing it the first time, but I‘m also using NVC by now whenever I need to untangle difficult conversations.
  - ngold 7y ago
    Violent communication is hitting someone to make a point. The name of this is insulting.
    - DEADBEEFC0FFEE 7y ago
      Violence isn't always physical.
      - tomashubelbauer 7y ago
        I agree with this but I still think it is a bad name. Maybe something like non-aggressive communication would fare better?
      - homonculus1 7y ago
        Violence is always physical, by definition. Sometimes the word is also used for poetic effect though.

roenxi 7y ago

The eye rolling is often justified. The value of something like NVC is having an entire framework for managing relationships (and it is a fantastic framework, havn't seen a better one yet). However a lot of vocal people are happy to take the words and not join the pieces together properly. There are a lot of mistakes in interpreting NVC that quickly lead to eye-roll-worthy corporate inductions. The nuance is critical and complicated. Eg, I'd assume an average person trying to talk about NVC either thinks: 1) Thinks it is a tool to use after someone else is already upset. 2) Hasn't understood it and thinks that the point is to appease someone who is angry by not being aggressive.

swsieber 7y ago

I instead hope that parents start teaching it to children. While my online decorum has major room for improvements, I feel like I'm pretty conscientious in my in person interactions and gained a lot of that through explicit instructions from my parents.

pyrale 7y ago

This happens mostly because orgs are stuck in confrontational, or at least non-cooperative ways of working, and expect that communication tools will somehow make it acceptable. When the tool is used, people soon realize that they won't get what they need, and that they now have to endure a speciific ceremonial.

otaviokz 7y ago

To be fair, I believe a big part of this kind of reaction often comes from being pushed trendy "easy fix for something important" from HR or top management quite frequently.

acollins1331 7y ago

Or maybe when you pick your words carefully to get desired reactions it is manipulative. I'd rather not manipulate others, it leads to me oftentimes sticking my foot in my mouth, but at least others know what I am thinking and I know I'm not lying to others for personal gain.

SubuSS 7y ago
A few points Re speaking your mind: - Talking is an incomplete way capturing your thoughts. (Gets progressively worse with videos / phone calls / emails / telegrams ...). You will never capture all you're thinking in a few words. So IMO speaking your mind is essentially blurting what's floating on the top rather than actually speaking your mind. You probably can see how that can strain a conversation. - Believe it or not, Communication is a 2 way problem: It doesn't matter even if you perfectly capture it, if the other party ain't listening. Or is only listening to cherry pick metaphors to rant on. Even if they are listening, the first few aggro sentences (or some that are sandwiched) can set them off - making them non-receptive to the rest. Again another reason people try to pick their words carefully so that they can put their best foot forward. -A world where clairvoyance is the norm is where speaking your mind may make sense: Otherwise you are one of the few who is baring his soul every time while others are picking a time and place. Good or bad, I am sure you see this puts you at a great disadvantage. - When bad news is delivered, we all process it differently. One of the common mechanics is attacking the messenger in some way or other OR trying to blame the messenger for delivering it badly. Again something to keep in mind when talking. - Life is grey: If you want to define careful words as manipulation, that's polarizing the situation. In reality it could be manipulation or just plain old 'being careful'. I am not going to be able to convince you in one post :) neither can I tell you how to live your life. These have been some of my observations that moved me from a 'speak your mind' person to a lot more 'reasonable' person model. So HTH!
- anoncorpprog 7y ago
  This is the most convincing argument I've heard yet on why speaking your mind can lead to dissatisfactory outcomes. coming from a speak your mind type of person, this is the most compelling perspective I've seen yet.