6 ms·

Loot Box Lottery

41 points by danso 7y ago

avsteele 7y ago
Seems like a good summary of the state of the law. This below, however, seems like very poor reasoning on ESRB's part. Similarly, the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB), a self-regulatory organization responsible for flagging games for mature content and providing content descriptors, refuses to classify loot boxes as gambling.[15]An ESRB spokesperson recently stated, “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want).” This argument differentiates loot boxes from slot machines and lotteries where the participant is not always guaranteed a prize. Additionally, some foreign governments, such as the United Kingdom and New Zealand, have declared that loot boxes are in fact not gambling. The guarantee of 'any' prize really isn't substantive given the vast differences in rarity/value placed on on the range of reward
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Could that argument be now used against slot machines being classified as gambling, since they always reward players with an experience?
- snarfy 7y ago
  By their reasoning slot machines are not gambling if the casino has a rewards card program.
- caf 7y ago
  Agreed - if that was all it took to make something no longer "gambling", it would be simple enough to modify slot machines to dispense a small piece of paper with a random joke printed on it as the prize when no monetary prize was won.
  - Aengeuad 7y ago
    This is almost exactly the system Japan has(had?) with Pachinko machines, where you don't get a monetary reward directly but a building next door will 'buy' the prizes that you do receive for real money, effectively skirting the gambling legislation. The irony is that when Gamefreak implemented this as a gameplay mechanic in the Pokemon games in the form of the Game Corner the games got a 12+ rating[0] from Pegi, the European equivalent to the American ESRB, as the games featured 'games of chance that are played as a traditional means of gambling'. The games in this region also renamed the machines to 'Game Machines' from 'Slot Machines' although I can't find out whether this was before or after the games originally released or whether it happened while the games were being rated. The ESRB rated the Pokemon games as E for Everybody but noted that some of the games contain 'simulated gambling'[1], although not all Pokemon games with the Game Corner got similar notices. Nintento decided to remove the Games Corner entirely from European releases because of the 12+ rating. It's absolutely astounding then that games like NBA 2K20 can feature actual factual slot machines[2] and other de facto gambling machines on top of lootboxes and neither Pegi or the ESRB mention this at all[3][4] and happily gave the game a 3+ rating. Part of me has to wonder why this is, in the Pokemon games the gambling is entirely self contained within the game and there's absolutely no real world monetary value attached to it, while NBA and other games featuring loot boxes are sitting on absolute cash cows not only for the developers who can sell keys to boxes but also for the players who have the chance of opening rare skins that can be worth hundreds of dollars. [0] https://pegi.info/search-pegi?q=pokemon%20blue https://pegi.info/search-pegi?q=pokemon%20blue - sorry, can't link directly to the game(s) [1] https://www.esrb.org/ratings/35048/Pok%C3%A9mon+Silver+Version/ https://www.esrb.org/ratings/35048/Pok%C3%A9mon+Silver+Versi... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46MQ1ZMZ-l4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46MQ1ZMZ-l4 [3] https://pegi.info/search-pegi?q=nba+2k20 https://pegi.info/search-pegi?q=nba+2k20 [4] https://www.esrb.org/ratings/36442/NBA+2K20/ https://www.esrb.org/ratings/36442/NBA+2K20/
- magashna 7y ago
  But we've had those 25c toy machines at your local grocers forever. And places like Chuck E Cheese have always been basically Vegas for children. The concept isn't new, it's just mainstream. I'm still of the opinion that parents should parent instead of over-regulating this
  - cgearhart 7y ago
    Organizing with other adults to regulate a practice that appears potentially harmful to our kids is “parenting”.
    - magashna 7y ago
      They're not my parents, why do I want them meddling in my life?
      - hanniabu 7y ago
        That's kind of like saying I didn't vote for this president so why should he be doing anything that affects me
        magashna 7y ago
        Maybe you haven't noticed, but many people are really mad about the president's actions and the unasked for effects.
        EpicEng 7y ago
        Man, why should those people be allowed to meddle in your life? What is your point exactly?
        magashna 7y ago
        Parents should be more responsible instead of using the government as a cudgel. I don't think I've been unclear.
- coldcode 7y ago
  If I ask you for money and give you an empty box 10 times in a row, in the hope that there is something in the box, would you not be losing money? Arguing you are still getting a box is sort of silly.
danso 7y ago
FWIW, I heard about this paper when it was mentioned in this Planet Money episode following up on their lootbox episode: https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=769484887 https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?stor... > JOHNSON: This is Thomas Hansfield. He's a law student at the University of Minnesota who wrote the perfect article for our story today. And we didn't even ask him to. Maybe nobody asked him to. > HANSFIELD: Pretty shocked that anyone had actually read this. > JOHNSON: Tommy's blog post for the Minnesota Law Review is all about how Loot Box lawsuits may end up a lot like a bunch of lawsuits that happened way back - ancient history - in the '90s. > HANSFIELD: The title of the article is "Loot Box Lottery: How The Backlash Against Video Game Loot Boxes Is Affecting Game Developers, Retailers, And Consumers In The Legal Sphere." His summarized conclusion is that the class action lawsuits that failed against baseball card makers suggest that loot box-related lawsuits might be similarly defeated.
jedimastert 7y ago
The problem that I see, and that I don't think was addressed and may differentiate from trading card games and the like, is that many of these games are created to be addictive, and the money thrown out is on top of that addiction.
wanderfowl 7y ago
So, a different-but-related question: Putting aside the desired addictive nature, are there any gamers out there who actually prefer microtransaction-driven loot box mechanics to more conventional item drops? Or is this just a UX element that most people dislike or don't care about, but some people get badly addicted to? There's so much argument about gambling, etc, but I'm yet to hear a compelling argument for why these should be allowed to exist, from a game design perspective, short of "we can make a lot of money from gamblers".
- ghkbrew 7y ago
  > why these should be allowed to exist Because that's the default state, in our society at least. If you want something banned/made illegal/etc you need a compelling argument for why it shouldn't be allowed to exist.
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    They said "from a game design perspective," not from a regulatory/legal perspective.
- moviuro 7y ago
  I kind of like how Path of Exile[0] handles that entire issue: * PoE is a Free-to-Play game. On paper, it's totally possible to play without giving them one cent. * PoE offers 2 pay-only features: account modifiers (such as stash tabs to hold items that drop while playing, and your personal premium hideout if you want one); and character skins + vanity portraits + in-game pets that don't help you + .... Only the skins are in lootboxes, and you may also get the one skin you want at a fixed price (a $3 lootbox can hold any items that are $3+ combined). Not sure about the odds though - I havent seen them published anywhere. As a gamer, I enjoy playing a game where I'm not a cash cow: my items in-game have the same drop rate as that of my neighbor; and I don't mind paying for nice-to-have "optional" features (the game is quite fun BTW). [0] https://pathofexile.com https://pathofexile.com
  - jbarberu 7y ago
Jaygles 7y ago
I believe there is an argument to be made for loot boxes not returning any value when you receive a duplicate item. If the item is something you can equip and it only matters if you have either one of them or none of them, then receiving a duplicate could be argued that you received something of zero worth. I know some loot box systems work around this by giving the player something else when it rolls a duplicate like a minimal amount of the currency. Regardless, rolling and opening loot boxes are usually designed to be addictive which is my main issue with them.
binarymax 7y ago
> "Dan Hewitt, Vice President of Media Relations for the Entertainment Software Association, has argued that “loot boxes are not gambling because they provide something to use in the game. They offer an alternate experience and players are not required to buy them . . . .”" This is like the Tobacco companies hiring a media company saying smoking is good for you. I've yet to hear a good argument from a truly independent party that says "no, it's not gambling". Because really, loot boxes are gambling.
- Verdex 7y ago
  I think what's happening is that they found out that instead of making real compelling content, they would just get their customers addicted to gambling. So they got used to a higher revenue stream that also allowed them to fire all of their highly skilled content creators. It's kind of like if a drug company discovered they could get a lot of money by selling heroin and then they fired all of their chemists who were busy trying to create drugs that would actually be helpful to society. Now that they're being called out on it, they're scrambling to try and find a way to avoid having to go back to working for a living. A responsible adult would say something like, "You know, we thought that we were simply giving the market what it wanted, but really it does look a lot like gambling when you think about it. We're taking it all out." And if they wanted to turn those lemons into lemonade, "Oh, by the way, we're releasing half life 3 and portal 3. It's the same game. Oh and we're releasing a Cave Johnson miniseries. J. K. Simmons is reprising his role." Yeah, that sounds like a lot of work. But it also sounds like it's providing real entertainment value to society instead of selling electronic heroin to kids.
  - twic 7y ago
    Cave Johnson vs Saxton Hale ... AT THE EARTH'S CORE!! It could just be rebadged Factorio PvP. Come on Valve, this is a hojillion-dollar idea!
  - d4mi3n 7y ago
    100% agree with you, though I'm skeptical that we'd see an improvement in quality of content if loot boxes and their like become untenable. Aside from getting people hooked, loot boxes tend to feed into a larger aspect of a kind of collection game. I don't see that stopping, and it'll likely continue to be a cheap way to keep people engaged in whatever platform is available. Instead of a loot box, I'd expect to see more stuff like EA's Apex Battlepass or Blizzard's War Chest in Starcraft 2. PS: I would happily throw money at any reasonable attempt to expand on Half-Life or Portal. C'mon Valve!
013a 7y ago
The fortnite allusion at the beginning is sort-of unfortunate; its one of the few massive games out there which doesn't sell loot boxes in the traditional sense. The Battle Royale mode has never had a loot box system remotly like this; their billions are made simply by selling cosmetic items. The single-player Save the World mode, which, relatively speaking no one plays, did have a system like this for a bit, but at the beginning of 2019 they replaced it with "X-Ray Llamas" which show you exactly what items you'll get before you spend the VBucks on it. There's a hundred other popular games they could have picked on which would be more accurate: Counterstrike: Global Offensive, Team Fortress 2, Apex Legends, the list goes on.
- twic 7y ago
  So is the story about Little Billy something that could not actually happen in practice?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - wincy 7y ago
    Maybe not, but my 11 year old nephew definitely spent $1600 of my sisters money on Fortnite. Then she got the charges reversed and he got the keep the stuff! What a good lesson for him.
- nacs 7y ago
  CounterStrike:GO also only has cosmetic items.
  - 013a 7y ago
    Sure, as does TF2 and Apex. But they all still have loot boxes which cost money to open, and do not reveal their content until they're opened.
twic 7y ago
How are loot boxes any different to Kinder eggs, where you don't know what toy you're going to get when you buy one? (I appreciate that Kinder eggs are banned in the US, but not for that reason!) It seems to me that the key thing about real gambling is that you win money. You put money in, and you might end up with more money than you started with, but probably won't. That's what generates the dynamic where once you lose some money, you keep playing to try and win it back. With loot boxes, you put money in, and you get virtual goods out. The good vary, and there may be ways to sell the goods for money. But you're fundamentally just buying goods. EDIT OF EDIT: This is the closest the article gets to touching on this: > At least one case in the early 2000s had potential to resolve the issue of whether activity similar to loot boxes is considered gambling, but it was dismissed due to lack of standing. In Chaset v. Fleer/Skybox Int’l, LP, 300 F.3d 1083 (9th Cir. 2002), purchasers of baseball cards and Pokémon trading cards brought a RICO suit against, inter alia, the manufacturers and distributors of the trading cards. [...] The Court dismissed the suit for lack of standing based solely on plaintiff’s failure to satisfy this element.[26] It held that “at the time plaintiffs purchased the cards, . . . they received value . . . for what they paid,” and “[t]heir disappointment upon not finding [a rare] card in the package is not an injury to property.”[27]
- stew_exe 7y ago
  "Blind Bag" toys and collectables are actually quite common. A web or Amazon search returns an abundance of such products which range from different IPs (Video games, tv shows, etcetera..) There are also YouTube channels devoted to opening these products in bulk. Pokemon cards, baseball cards, hell, even these subscription box services that are popular nowadays could be considered 'real life loot boxes'. The idea of a product that you purchase not knowing it's contents is not new idea, but it seems like we have decided that loot boxes in games are different from these products.
- naz 7y ago
  > How are loot boxes any different to Kinder eggs That's an interesting question! At first I thought they were pretty similar, but I had a think about this, and there are several key differences: * With loot boxes, you can often trade the items that you won * Loot boxes often show you the rarity (and sometimes the value) of an item that you've won. * Loot boxes often show a spinning wheel or similar device that adds a level of excitement and a feeling of a "near miss" by showing the wheel "almost" land on an item. * Some loot boxes allow you to "roll again" if you're not happy with the item you received. * Loot boxes play sounds and show effects depending on the rarity of the item won. * Loot boxes are given out for free, but you have to buy a "key" to open them. * Games with loot boxes emphasize items that can be won from them, and encourage players to display these items for in-game prestige. * Some loot box items give you an in-game advantage. * Loot boxes are not edible.
darkcha0s 7y ago
Why do they open up with "Save the world", which is the fortnite mode that no one plays? BR Fortnite has no lootboxes. There are many prime examples just like they are describing, but they seem to have chosen the worst example.
nemacol 7y ago
If CCG's like Magic: The Gathering is not gambling then I cannot fathom how loot boxes are. With loot boxes you cannot cash out. That changes the dynamic completely, in my opinion. When one gambles you put in a small amount of money in the hopes of getting out something of greater value. If that value is perma-locked in a video game, non-transferable, non-redeemable, then I don't buy that it is gambling. At least with MTG you would pay for a pack, maybe get a rare card worth some money and you could sell it / trade it and get monetary value for your "gamble"
- Drakim 7y ago
  I disagree, if the content of the loot box contains something which people are willing to pay money for, then the prize has value. Just because it's non-transferable and non-redeemable doesn't mean it's value is nil.

41 points by danso 7y ago

Seems like a good summary of the state of the law. This below, however, seems like very poor reasoning on ESRB's part. Similarly, the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB), a self-regulatory organization responsible for flagging games for mature content and providing content descriptors, refuses to classify loot boxes as gambling.[15]An ESRB spokesperson recently stated, “While there’s an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don’t want).” This argument differentiates loot boxes from slot machines and lotteries where the participant is not always guaranteed a prize. Additionally, some foreign governments, such as the United Kingdom and New Zealand, have declared that loot boxes are in fact not gambling. The guarantee of 'any' prize really isn't substantive given the vast differences in rarity/value placed on on the range of reward

TeMPOraL 7y ago
Could that argument be now used against slot machines being classified as gambling, since they always reward players with an experience?
snarfy 7y ago
By their reasoning slot machines are not gambling if the casino has a rewards card program.
caf 7y ago
Agreed - if that was all it took to make something no longer "gambling", it would be simple enough to modify slot machines to dispense a small piece of paper with a random joke printed on it as the prize when no monetary prize was won.
- Aengeuad 7y ago
  This is almost exactly the system Japan has(had?) with Pachinko machines, where you don't get a monetary reward directly but a building next door will 'buy' the prizes that you do receive for real money, effectively skirting the gambling legislation. The irony is that when Gamefreak implemented this as a gameplay mechanic in the Pokemon games in the form of the Game Corner the games got a 12+ rating[0] from Pegi, the European equivalent to the American ESRB, as the games featured 'games of chance that are played as a traditional means of gambling'. The games in this region also renamed the machines to 'Game Machines' from 'Slot Machines' although I can't find out whether this was before or after the games originally released or whether it happened while the games were being rated. The ESRB rated the Pokemon games as E for Everybody but noted that some of the games contain 'simulated gambling'[1], although not all Pokemon games with the Game Corner got similar notices. Nintento decided to remove the Games Corner entirely from European releases because of the 12+ rating. It's absolutely astounding then that games like NBA 2K20 can feature actual factual slot machines[2] and other de facto gambling machines on top of lootboxes and neither Pegi or the ESRB mention this at all[3][4] and happily gave the game a 3+ rating. Part of me has to wonder why this is, in the Pokemon games the gambling is entirely self contained within the game and there's absolutely no real world monetary value attached to it, while NBA and other games featuring loot boxes are sitting on absolute cash cows not only for the developers who can sell keys to boxes but also for the players who have the chance of opening rare skins that can be worth hundreds of dollars. [0] https://pegi.info/search-pegi?q=pokemon%20blue https://pegi.info/search-pegi?q=pokemon%20blue - sorry, can't link directly to the game(s) [1] https://www.esrb.org/ratings/35048/Pok%C3%A9mon+Silver+Version/ https://www.esrb.org/ratings/35048/Pok%C3%A9mon+Silver+Versi... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46MQ1ZMZ-l4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46MQ1ZMZ-l4 [3] https://pegi.info/search-pegi?q=nba+2k20 https://pegi.info/search-pegi?q=nba+2k20 [4] https://www.esrb.org/ratings/36442/NBA+2K20/ https://www.esrb.org/ratings/36442/NBA+2K20/
magashna 7y ago
But we've had those 25c toy machines at your local grocers forever. And places like Chuck E Cheese have always been basically Vegas for children. The concept isn't new, it's just mainstream. I'm still of the opinion that parents should parent instead of over-regulating this
- cgearhart 7y ago
  Organizing with other adults to regulate a practice that appears potentially harmful to our kids is “parenting”.
  - magashna 7y ago
    They're not my parents, why do I want them meddling in my life?
    - hanniabu 7y ago
      That's kind of like saying I didn't vote for this president so why should he be doing anything that affects me
      - magashna 7y ago
        Maybe you haven't noticed, but many people are really mad about the president's actions and the unasked for effects.
        EpicEng 7y ago
        Man, why should those people be allowed to meddle in your life? What is your point exactly?
        magashna 7y ago
        Parents should be more responsible instead of using the government as a cudgel. I don't think I've been unclear.
coldcode 7y ago
If I ask you for money and give you an empty box 10 times in a row, in the hope that there is something in the box, would you not be losing money? Arguing you are still getting a box is sort of silly.

danso 7y ago

FWIW, I heard about this paper when it was mentioned in this Planet Money episode following up on their lootbox episode: https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=769484887 https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?stor... > JOHNSON: This is Thomas Hansfield. He's a law student at the University of Minnesota who wrote the perfect article for our story today. And we didn't even ask him to. Maybe nobody asked him to. > HANSFIELD: Pretty shocked that anyone had actually read this. > JOHNSON: Tommy's blog post for the Minnesota Law Review is all about how Loot Box lawsuits may end up a lot like a bunch of lawsuits that happened way back - ancient history - in the '90s. > HANSFIELD: The title of the article is "Loot Box Lottery: How The Backlash Against Video Game Loot Boxes Is Affecting Game Developers, Retailers, And Consumers In The Legal Sphere." His summarized conclusion is that the class action lawsuits that failed against baseball card makers suggest that loot box-related lawsuits might be similarly defeated.

jedimastert 7y ago

The problem that I see, and that I don't think was addressed and may differentiate from trading card games and the like, is that many of these games are created to be addictive, and the money thrown out is on top of that addiction.

wanderfowl 7y ago

So, a different-but-related question: Putting aside the desired addictive nature, are there any gamers out there who actually prefer microtransaction-driven loot box mechanics to more conventional item drops? Or is this just a UX element that most people dislike or don't care about, but some people get badly addicted to? There's so much argument about gambling, etc, but I'm yet to hear a compelling argument for why these should be allowed to exist, from a game design perspective, short of "we can make a lot of money from gamblers".

ghkbrew 7y ago
> why these should be allowed to exist Because that's the default state, in our society at least. If you want something banned/made illegal/etc you need a compelling argument for why it shouldn't be allowed to exist.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  They said "from a game design perspective," not from a regulatory/legal perspective.
moviuro 7y ago
I kind of like how Path of Exile[0] handles that entire issue: * PoE is a Free-to-Play game. On paper, it's totally possible to play without giving them one cent. * PoE offers 2 pay-only features: account modifiers (such as stash tabs to hold items that drop while playing, and your personal premium hideout if you want one); and character skins + vanity portraits + in-game pets that don't help you + .... Only the skins are in lootboxes, and you may also get the one skin you want at a fixed price (a $3 lootbox can hold any items that are $3+ combined). Not sure about the odds though - I havent seen them published anywhere. As a gamer, I enjoy playing a game where I'm not a cash cow: my items in-game have the same drop rate as that of my neighbor; and I don't mind paying for nice-to-have "optional" features (the game is quite fun BTW). [0] https://pathofexile.com https://pathofexile.com
- jbarberu 7y ago

Jaygles 7y ago

I believe there is an argument to be made for loot boxes not returning any value when you receive a duplicate item. If the item is something you can equip and it only matters if you have either one of them or none of them, then receiving a duplicate could be argued that you received something of zero worth. I know some loot box systems work around this by giving the player something else when it rolls a duplicate like a minimal amount of the currency. Regardless, rolling and opening loot boxes are usually designed to be addictive which is my main issue with them.

binarymax 7y ago

> "Dan Hewitt, Vice President of Media Relations for the Entertainment Software Association, has argued that “loot boxes are not gambling because they provide something to use in the game. They offer an alternate experience and players are not required to buy them . . . .”" This is like the Tobacco companies hiring a media company saying smoking is good for you. I've yet to hear a good argument from a truly independent party that says "no, it's not gambling". Because really, loot boxes are gambling.

Verdex 7y ago
I think what's happening is that they found out that instead of making real compelling content, they would just get their customers addicted to gambling. So they got used to a higher revenue stream that also allowed them to fire all of their highly skilled content creators. It's kind of like if a drug company discovered they could get a lot of money by selling heroin and then they fired all of their chemists who were busy trying to create drugs that would actually be helpful to society. Now that they're being called out on it, they're scrambling to try and find a way to avoid having to go back to working for a living. A responsible adult would say something like, "You know, we thought that we were simply giving the market what it wanted, but really it does look a lot like gambling when you think about it. We're taking it all out." And if they wanted to turn those lemons into lemonade, "Oh, by the way, we're releasing half life 3 and portal 3. It's the same game. Oh and we're releasing a Cave Johnson miniseries. J. K. Simmons is reprising his role." Yeah, that sounds like a lot of work. But it also sounds like it's providing real entertainment value to society instead of selling electronic heroin to kids.
- twic 7y ago
  Cave Johnson vs Saxton Hale ... AT THE EARTH'S CORE!! It could just be rebadged Factorio PvP. Come on Valve, this is a hojillion-dollar idea!
- d4mi3n 7y ago
  100% agree with you, though I'm skeptical that we'd see an improvement in quality of content if loot boxes and their like become untenable. Aside from getting people hooked, loot boxes tend to feed into a larger aspect of a kind of collection game. I don't see that stopping, and it'll likely continue to be a cheap way to keep people engaged in whatever platform is available. Instead of a loot box, I'd expect to see more stuff like EA's Apex Battlepass or Blizzard's War Chest in Starcraft 2. PS: I would happily throw money at any reasonable attempt to expand on Half-Life or Portal. C'mon Valve!

013a 7y ago

The fortnite allusion at the beginning is sort-of unfortunate; its one of the few massive games out there which doesn't sell loot boxes in the traditional sense. The Battle Royale mode has never had a loot box system remotly like this; their billions are made simply by selling cosmetic items. The single-player Save the World mode, which, relatively speaking no one plays, did have a system like this for a bit, but at the beginning of 2019 they replaced it with "X-Ray Llamas" which show you exactly what items you'll get before you spend the VBucks on it. There's a hundred other popular games they could have picked on which would be more accurate: Counterstrike: Global Offensive, Team Fortress 2, Apex Legends, the list goes on.

twic 7y ago
So is the story about Little Billy something that could not actually happen in practice?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- wincy 7y ago
  Maybe not, but my 11 year old nephew definitely spent $1600 of my sisters money on Fortnite. Then she got the charges reversed and he got the keep the stuff! What a good lesson for him.
nacs 7y ago
CounterStrike:GO also only has cosmetic items.
- 013a 7y ago
  Sure, as does TF2 and Apex. But they all still have loot boxes which cost money to open, and do not reveal their content until they're opened.

twic 7y ago

How are loot boxes any different to Kinder eggs, where you don't know what toy you're going to get when you buy one? (I appreciate that Kinder eggs are banned in the US, but not for that reason!) It seems to me that the key thing about real gambling is that you win money. You put money in, and you might end up with more money than you started with, but probably won't. That's what generates the dynamic where once you lose some money, you keep playing to try and win it back. With loot boxes, you put money in, and you get virtual goods out. The good vary, and there may be ways to sell the goods for money. But you're fundamentally just buying goods. EDIT OF EDIT: This is the closest the article gets to touching on this: > At least one case in the early 2000s had potential to resolve the issue of whether activity similar to loot boxes is considered gambling, but it was dismissed due to lack of standing. In Chaset v. Fleer/Skybox Int’l, LP, 300 F.3d 1083 (9th Cir. 2002), purchasers of baseball cards and Pokémon trading cards brought a RICO suit against, inter alia, the manufacturers and distributors of the trading cards. [...] The Court dismissed the suit for lack of standing based solely on plaintiff’s failure to satisfy this element.[26] It held that “at the time plaintiffs purchased the cards, . . . they received value . . . for what they paid,” and “[t]heir disappointment upon not finding [a rare] card in the package is not an injury to property.”[27]

stew_exe 7y ago
"Blind Bag" toys and collectables are actually quite common. A web or Amazon search returns an abundance of such products which range from different IPs (Video games, tv shows, etcetera..) There are also YouTube channels devoted to opening these products in bulk. Pokemon cards, baseball cards, hell, even these subscription box services that are popular nowadays could be considered 'real life loot boxes'. The idea of a product that you purchase not knowing it's contents is not new idea, but it seems like we have decided that loot boxes in games are different from these products.
naz 7y ago
> How are loot boxes any different to Kinder eggs That's an interesting question! At first I thought they were pretty similar, but I had a think about this, and there are several key differences: * With loot boxes, you can often trade the items that you won * Loot boxes often show you the rarity (and sometimes the value) of an item that you've won. * Loot boxes often show a spinning wheel or similar device that adds a level of excitement and a feeling of a "near miss" by showing the wheel "almost" land on an item. * Some loot boxes allow you to "roll again" if you're not happy with the item you received. * Loot boxes play sounds and show effects depending on the rarity of the item won. * Loot boxes are given out for free, but you have to buy a "key" to open them. * Games with loot boxes emphasize items that can be won from them, and encourage players to display these items for in-game prestige. * Some loot box items give you an in-game advantage. * Loot boxes are not edible.

darkcha0s 7y ago

Why do they open up with "Save the world", which is the fortnite mode that no one plays? BR Fortnite has no lootboxes. There are many prime examples just like they are describing, but they seem to have chosen the worst example.

nemacol 7y ago

If CCG's like Magic: The Gathering is not gambling then I cannot fathom how loot boxes are. With loot boxes you cannot cash out. That changes the dynamic completely, in my opinion. When one gambles you put in a small amount of money in the hopes of getting out something of greater value. If that value is perma-locked in a video game, non-transferable, non-redeemable, then I don't buy that it is gambling. At least with MTG you would pay for a pack, maybe get a rare card worth some money and you could sell it / trade it and get monetary value for your "gamble"

Drakim 7y ago
I disagree, if the content of the loot box contains something which people are willing to pay money for, then the prize has value. Just because it's non-transferable and non-redeemable doesn't mean it's value is nil.