4 ms·

A History of Chop Suey

36 points by Thevet 7y ago

codysc 7y ago
I recommend watching The Search for General Tso. It's a documentary following the Chinese in America with the lens being on the the General Tso dish, in a very similar line to the article.
dmix 7y ago
Reminds me of a similar story from HN which I remember doing a rewarding deep dive into: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/chop-suey-nation/article30539419/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/chop-suey... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13258636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13258636
benj111 7y ago
"More properly written tsa sui (Mandarin) or tsap seui (Cantonese)" So in UK restaurants, 'Char Sui' is the same thing?
- sdrothrock 7y ago
  I'm curious about whether you're remembering the spelling correctly -- I did a quick google for "char sui" but couldn't find it, and found the other thing I do know, which is "char siu," a kind of marinated/roasted pork.
  - benj111 7y ago
    At the risk of appearing posher than I am, there's this [1], along with other links, I'm not sure if they refer to the same thing though. [1] https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/waitrose-chinese-char-sui-pork/885142-555473-555474 https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/waitrose-chinese-char...
    - sdrothrock 7y ago
      I think they refer to the pork I was thinking about -- the listing has a typo, but the packaging says "char siu pork." :) Just to be clear, that's not related to chop suey.
      - benj111 7y ago
        Good point, Waitrose have obviously gone downhill, interestingly Tesco seem to have made the same mistake [1]. As counter examples I've found references the char sui chicken [2] and venison [3]. But I think you're right that it started off as pork, and not chop suey. So I could 'legitimately' order char sui tsa sui? How am I pronouncing the 'tsa'? [1]https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/300497160&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwj89tKswqDlAhUBL1AKHSBRCOMQFjAPegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3zSIDNFY-cwFUpL50hThWM https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.tesco.com/groceries... [2]https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D8VwqY0GTJ2s&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwifq6GGwKDlAhWCEVAKHYfED7I4ChC3AjAFegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw0jDH-j8VUaY2vGX9iERIhX https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv... [3]https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DKExjJj8TLsw&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwifq6GGwKDlAhWCEVAKHYfED7I4ChC3AjAGegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw1WC6xb6yTZa58uW7BHjNYQ https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv...
        sdrothrock 7y ago
        > So I could 'legitimately' order char sui tsa sui? Not really, for a couple of reasons. The "r" in "char" is a rising tone, which is distinct and different from the "tsa" in "tsa sui" (Mandarin) or "tsap" in "tsap seui" (Cantonese). > How am I pronouncing the 'tsa'? The "tsa" and "tsap" are (and I can't confirm this 100% since I only speak rudimentary Mandarin) most likely sharp falling tones, like when you say "Shit!" If you say "cha" with that tone, odds are that it'll sound like "chop" with the p not being very strong. The closest approximation is probably saying something like "it's a" but without the "i" and in the tone/falling pitch of a curse, like "Fuck!" They're very distinctly different in most Chinese dialects, and Cantonese and Mandarin are distinctly different dialects themselves. The other reason you couldn't say "char sui tsa sui" is that "char sui" (correctly, "char siu") is from Cantonese, but "tsa sui" is from Mandarin, so you can't really use them together. Another issue is that foods don't always work like that -- imagine trying to go to the pub and ask for "salmon and chips" someone unfamiliar with pub culture and English might imagine that it's just fish and chips with salmon being the type of fried fish specified (not knowing that you can't specify the fish), or someone else might expect grilled salmon with chips on the side, but odds are you might not get anything at all because it's not something anyone usually serves. :)
- roel_v 7y ago
  No that's a pork dish. IIRC (although I can hardly claim to be an expert on UK Chinese restaurant dish naming) it's also called 'chop suey', or 'chop choy', in the UK. In the Netherlands it's 'tjap tjoi'. Then again, I'm not sure what makes 'chop suey' anything else than 'toss a few vegetables in a stir fry pan and serve on rice', as several recipes I found are just that. In my experience, for it be recognized by people as 'chop suey', it needs a certain brown liquidish sauce, for which I use a mixture of Shaoxing wine and light soy sauce - but even there, there seems to be a lot of leeway (e.g. sauces based on fish sauce, Indonesian soy sauces etc).
  - benj111 7y ago
    Yes I think you're right about the pork thing. I don't know where you're based, chop suey isnt really a Chinese restaurant staple. Growing up I remember a takeaway called Thai Garden advertised it, but I always associated with American films. For takeaways the format was overwhelmingly headings with the meat, then items with different veg. Eg X with cashew nuts, X with water chestnuts, X with oyster sauce. Then an Egg fried rice section, then a Chow Mein section. But that could be a regional thing within the UK.
    - roel_v 7y ago
      I'm in the Netherlands now, 'tjap tjoi' is pretty much the most cliche 'Chinese' (in quotes because it's all heavily Westernized) dish there is. When I was living in the UK (Staines, south-west of London - but this was 10+ years ago) I remember recognizing it on menus, I hadn't had much Chinese at the time and this was one of the few I knew. But yeah I don't know how wide spread it is. Maybe the same decline in popularity the article talks about has happened everywhere.
- starfallg 7y ago
  Char sui 叉燒 is a Cantonese dish of pork, barbecued (燒 - roasted, burnt) on a skewer (叉 - forked, skewered). It is typically served as a dish on it's own, together with rice or noodles, as a filling in buns and pastries, in fried rice, or mixed in with other stir-fried or slow cooked dishes to give it a meat component. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_siu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_siu In a takeaway, it's is usually the meat on it's own, possibly stir fired with some sauce (and maybe other ingredients) as the cha siu would be made previously. In authentic Cantonese restaurants, it would be typically made on the same day, and cut from the skewer on order. Served on it's own, with maybe a bit of cha siu drippings and trimmed blanched vegetables.
matthewfelgate 7y ago
Disappointed this isn't about the System Of A Down song.
starfallg 7y ago
Chop Suey or 雜菜 has a history way longer than what the article suggests. A clue to this is the Korean dish of Japchae (잡채) (the stir fried glass noodle dish in Korean restaurants), which is Sino-Korean for, you guessed it - 雜菜, when written in Hanja. This is traced back to the early 1600s in written records, purportedly invented in Korea. Given the circumstances, it was likely a Korean version of the original disk from China. Another dish that bears this name has a even more direct connection - Indonesian Cap Cai. This is clearly a localised version of the original dish that either slightly precedes or is contemporaneous with the westernised dish. So maybe this article is a history of Chop Suey in America, but definitely not Chop Suey as a dish in general. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japchae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japchae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_cai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_cai

36 points by Thevet 7y ago

I recommend watching The Search for General Tso. It's a documentary following the Chinese in America with the lens being on the the General Tso dish, in a very similar line to the article.

dmix 7y ago

Reminds me of a similar story from HN which I remember doing a rewarding deep dive into: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/chop-suey-nation/article30539419/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/chop-suey... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13258636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13258636

benj111 7y ago

"More properly written tsa sui (Mandarin) or tsap seui (Cantonese)" So in UK restaurants, 'Char Sui' is the same thing?

sdrothrock 7y ago
I'm curious about whether you're remembering the spelling correctly -- I did a quick google for "char sui" but couldn't find it, and found the other thing I do know, which is "char siu," a kind of marinated/roasted pork.
- benj111 7y ago
  At the risk of appearing posher than I am, there's this [1], along with other links, I'm not sure if they refer to the same thing though. [1] https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/waitrose-chinese-char-sui-pork/885142-555473-555474 https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/waitrose-chinese-char...
  - sdrothrock 7y ago
    I think they refer to the pork I was thinking about -- the listing has a typo, but the packaging says "char siu pork." :) Just to be clear, that's not related to chop suey.
    - benj111 7y ago
      Good point, Waitrose have obviously gone downhill, interestingly Tesco seem to have made the same mistake [1]. As counter examples I've found references the char sui chicken [2] and venison [3]. But I think you're right that it started off as pork, and not chop suey. So I could 'legitimately' order char sui tsa sui? How am I pronouncing the 'tsa'? [1]https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/300497160&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwj89tKswqDlAhUBL1AKHSBRCOMQFjAPegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3zSIDNFY-cwFUpL50hThWM https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.tesco.com/groceries... [2]https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D8VwqY0GTJ2s&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwifq6GGwKDlAhWCEVAKHYfED7I4ChC3AjAFegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw0jDH-j8VUaY2vGX9iERIhX https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv... [3]https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DKExjJj8TLsw&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwifq6GGwKDlAhWCEVAKHYfED7I4ChC3AjAGegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw1WC6xb6yTZa58uW7BHjNYQ https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv...
      - sdrothrock 7y ago
        > So I could 'legitimately' order char sui tsa sui? Not really, for a couple of reasons. The "r" in "char" is a rising tone, which is distinct and different from the "tsa" in "tsa sui" (Mandarin) or "tsap" in "tsap seui" (Cantonese). > How am I pronouncing the 'tsa'? The "tsa" and "tsap" are (and I can't confirm this 100% since I only speak rudimentary Mandarin) most likely sharp falling tones, like when you say "Shit!" If you say "cha" with that tone, odds are that it'll sound like "chop" with the p not being very strong. The closest approximation is probably saying something like "it's a" but without the "i" and in the tone/falling pitch of a curse, like "Fuck!" They're very distinctly different in most Chinese dialects, and Cantonese and Mandarin are distinctly different dialects themselves. The other reason you couldn't say "char sui tsa sui" is that "char sui" (correctly, "char siu") is from Cantonese, but "tsa sui" is from Mandarin, so you can't really use them together. Another issue is that foods don't always work like that -- imagine trying to go to the pub and ask for "salmon and chips" someone unfamiliar with pub culture and English might imagine that it's just fish and chips with salmon being the type of fried fish specified (not knowing that you can't specify the fish), or someone else might expect grilled salmon with chips on the side, but odds are you might not get anything at all because it's not something anyone usually serves. :)
roel_v 7y ago
No that's a pork dish. IIRC (although I can hardly claim to be an expert on UK Chinese restaurant dish naming) it's also called 'chop suey', or 'chop choy', in the UK. In the Netherlands it's 'tjap tjoi'. Then again, I'm not sure what makes 'chop suey' anything else than 'toss a few vegetables in a stir fry pan and serve on rice', as several recipes I found are just that. In my experience, for it be recognized by people as 'chop suey', it needs a certain brown liquidish sauce, for which I use a mixture of Shaoxing wine and light soy sauce - but even there, there seems to be a lot of leeway (e.g. sauces based on fish sauce, Indonesian soy sauces etc).
- benj111 7y ago
  Yes I think you're right about the pork thing. I don't know where you're based, chop suey isnt really a Chinese restaurant staple. Growing up I remember a takeaway called Thai Garden advertised it, but I always associated with American films. For takeaways the format was overwhelmingly headings with the meat, then items with different veg. Eg X with cashew nuts, X with water chestnuts, X with oyster sauce. Then an Egg fried rice section, then a Chow Mein section. But that could be a regional thing within the UK.
  - roel_v 7y ago
    I'm in the Netherlands now, 'tjap tjoi' is pretty much the most cliche 'Chinese' (in quotes because it's all heavily Westernized) dish there is. When I was living in the UK (Staines, south-west of London - but this was 10+ years ago) I remember recognizing it on menus, I hadn't had much Chinese at the time and this was one of the few I knew. But yeah I don't know how wide spread it is. Maybe the same decline in popularity the article talks about has happened everywhere.
starfallg 7y ago
Char sui 叉燒 is a Cantonese dish of pork, barbecued (燒 - roasted, burnt) on a skewer (叉 - forked, skewered). It is typically served as a dish on it's own, together with rice or noodles, as a filling in buns and pastries, in fried rice, or mixed in with other stir-fried or slow cooked dishes to give it a meat component. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_siu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_siu In a takeaway, it's is usually the meat on it's own, possibly stir fired with some sauce (and maybe other ingredients) as the cha siu would be made previously. In authentic Cantonese restaurants, it would be typically made on the same day, and cut from the skewer on order. Served on it's own, with maybe a bit of cha siu drippings and trimmed blanched vegetables.

matthewfelgate 7y ago

Disappointed this isn't about the System Of A Down song.

starfallg 7y ago

Chop Suey or 雜菜 has a history way longer than what the article suggests. A clue to this is the Korean dish of Japchae (잡채) (the stir fried glass noodle dish in Korean restaurants), which is Sino-Korean for, you guessed it - 雜菜, when written in Hanja. This is traced back to the early 1600s in written records, purportedly invented in Korea. Given the circumstances, it was likely a Korean version of the original disk from China. Another dish that bears this name has a even more direct connection - Indonesian Cap Cai. This is clearly a localised version of the original dish that either slightly precedes or is contemporaneous with the westernised dish. So maybe this article is a history of Chop Suey in America, but definitely not Chop Suey as a dish in general. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japchae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japchae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_cai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_cai