7 ms·

Did I miss it or did the article not say what they arrested the older man for. Living in a basement isn't illegal in and of itself but the only hint of wrong do

Did I miss it or did the article not say what they arrested the older man for. Living in a basement isn't illegal in and of itself but the only hint of wrong doing is that the guy at the bar wanted to end the way they were living. I wouldn't be surprised if the family had been held against their will or there was some kind of abuse but the article doesn't mention it.

leoedin 7y ago
The article gave the age of the oldest one (apart from the older guy) as 25, and apparently they've lived like that for 9 years. That suggests they were all children when they went underground. There's almost certainly some sort of child welfare law violated when you force your kids to live in a basement for 9 years.
- mercer 7y ago
  Even just not sending your children to school can be a legal issue. There are religious exemptions though (I was mostly home-schooled, for example).
winkelwagen 7y ago
You missed it, the reason the older was was arrested was because he was not cooperating with the police investigation. What it exactly means in this context is not completely clear though. But I can imagine the police went to have a look, and the man freaked out. This is uncommon in the Netherlands, I know there are communities in the US with small communities that don't want anything to do with the government. Those people don't even have birth certificates or social security number. But I've never heard anything like that in the Netherlands.
- pkaye 7y ago
  > But I've never heard anything like that in the Netherlands. They must be really good at hiding themselves. /s
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    ...something something kelder vs. achterhuis.
  - rosege 7y ago
    yes hide and seek champions! https://imgflip.com/i/3dfs74 https://imgflip.com/i/3dfs74
- jandrese 7y ago
  In the states those people can pull guns on federal agents and get away with it. It's really incredible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff They're really lucky they didn't send Texas cops up to deal with that. They'll shoot you in your own home just because you forgot to close your door.
  - captainredbeard 7y ago
    Both of those would be considered extremely rare events. If you pull a gun on federal agents, you are likely to be shot. The Bundy case is an aberration.
    - jandrese 7y ago
      It's the second time in the past two weeks a cop in Texas has killed an innocent person for no good reason.
      - 77pt77 7y ago
        That you know of...
    - rayiner 7y ago
      That’s not true. Federal agents have numerous armed standoffs that don’t result in anyone getting shot. In the recent Oregon standoff, involving 26 armed militiamen, just one person was killed. When someone does get killed, there is often huge public backlash. Consider Ruby Ridge, where a US militant family had an armed standoff with the US Marshall’s after the father missed a court date for an unrelated charge: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge. In an initial firefight, one member of the family and one federal agent were killed. Later, a federal sniper shot and killed the mother, and shot the father. After the incident ended, the father was acquitted of all charges except missing the original court date. One of the sons, who had killed the federal agent, was acquitted of all charges. The government settled wrongful death actions for over $3 million. Several years later, the state prosecutor indicted the federal agent who had killed the mother (though the charges were dismissed after a different prosecutor was elected).
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >not cooperating with the police investigation Here in the US that means "lawyering up instead of being dumb and running his mouth", not sure if it's the same over there. If he was really not cooperative the police would be more than happy to say exactly what (they say) he did.
  - himlion 7y ago
    Strong privacy laws prevent them from doing that. I saw an interview with a police officer and they could basically not say anything at all. Most info comes from journalists.
  - Scarblac 7y ago
    It's just the smallest, easiest to prove thing that allows them to lock him up for a short time while the investigation is getting started. When they know more about what actually happened they can file more detailed charges.
jackhack 7y ago
arrested for "not cooperating". Perhaps that's against the law there and one can be compelled to cooperate in a general way. I'm more curious about how they paid rent for a decade, without contact with the outside world (e.g. a job-->salary). And how did this man pay for his five beers? There's an interesting story here, but to my American mind I don't see evidence of a crime unless some were being held against their will.
- haasted 7y ago
  Based on the bar-chatter, it sounds like the boy was being held against his will. There’s probably also a case of negligence to be made. Keeping children in basements for a long time is likely to impede their development.
  - trentlott 7y ago
    Also schooling? Do they require that you educate your child via the state or (not so) equivalent home-schooling?
    - Scarblac 7y ago
      It is required to let your child go to school and home-schooling does not satisfy that requirement so is in principle illegal. There are a few ways some people do manage to get it allowed (you have to argue that your way of life / religion is fundamentally incompatible with all schools in the region) but expect quite a few visits from suspicious civil cervants and lots of arguing. That's the theory, anyway. How it was possible that these children were never checked on is still under investigation.
    - jandrese 7y ago
      Why bother teaching your children if the world is going to end before they are adults?
      - trentlott 7y ago
        Because it'll get them taken away before the world ends Its an annoying needle to thread
rossdavidh 7y ago
There's what they technically arrested him for, which was apparently not cooperating with a police investigation, and there's why they really arrested him, which is that there is a very strong possibility that he was instrumental in forcing several children to live in a basement for 9 years, but they don't have the evidence sorted out for that charge yet.
ecpottinger 7y ago
Notice, the farm did not belong to him. So where is the owner?
- jhncls 7y ago
  The current owner is a lady married to a local politician. She inherited the farm 4 years ago from her aunt. She visited the property a few times and never noticed something suspicious. The rent was paid for promptly every month. Many questions remain unanswered. article in Dutch: https://www.rtvdrenthe.nl/nieuws/153066/Eigenaresse-boerderij-Ruinerwold-Ik-heb-nooit-iets-ondeugdelijks-gezien https://www.rtvdrenthe.nl/nieuws/153066/Eigenaresse-boerderi...
  - 77pt77 7y ago
    Where did the money come from?
    - jhncls 7y ago
      The 58 year old was an excellent carpenter, specialized in ship interiors. He did not live at the farm, but visited it daily with food and stuff such as toilet paper. Towards the outside world he was just refurbishing the old farm. Very weird story.
PeterisP 7y ago
The article does mention that the man claimed to have "ran away" and requested help to enable his younger siblings to "end the way they were living", so that kind of does imply that at least some members of that family have been held there against their will.
walshemj 7y ago
I would suspect that anti slavery laws could be used and yes there is such a thing, in the UK it's normally gang masters keeping agricultural workers.
FraKtus 7y ago
Well, he was not educating his childrens. Not sure about the law, but too me, it's serious misconduct.
furyg3 7y ago
From what I've gathered reading Dutch sources: * The man wasn't cooperating with a police investigation as to whether or not people are being held there against their will (at least one person - the escaped 25 year old 'boy' - said he had been). * While the children are now adults, it appears as if they never went to school (illegal in NL, with some homeschooling exceptions, but this must be formerly arranged). * It appears as if (at least some of) the kids were also never registered. This is also illegal in NL. * The above two facts are probably considered to be child abuse and may be part of a larger pattern of abuse now that they are adults.
LifeLiverTransp 7y ago
Usually shizophren parents, who create a world of horrors to keep there children under control.

leoedin 7y ago

The article gave the age of the oldest one (apart from the older guy) as 25, and apparently they've lived like that for 9 years. That suggests they were all children when they went underground. There's almost certainly some sort of child welfare law violated when you force your kids to live in a basement for 9 years.

mercer 7y ago
Even just not sending your children to school can be a legal issue. There are religious exemptions though (I was mostly home-schooled, for example).

winkelwagen 7y ago

You missed it, the reason the older was was arrested was because he was not cooperating with the police investigation. What it exactly means in this context is not completely clear though. But I can imagine the police went to have a look, and the man freaked out. This is uncommon in the Netherlands, I know there are communities in the US with small communities that don't want anything to do with the government. Those people don't even have birth certificates or social security number. But I've never heard anything like that in the Netherlands.

pkaye 7y ago
> But I've never heard anything like that in the Netherlands. They must be really good at hiding themselves. /s
- perl4ever 7y ago
  ...something something kelder vs. achterhuis.
- rosege 7y ago
  yes hide and seek champions! https://imgflip.com/i/3dfs74 https://imgflip.com/i/3dfs74
jandrese 7y ago
In the states those people can pull guns on federal agents and get away with it. It's really incredible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff They're really lucky they didn't send Texas cops up to deal with that. They'll shoot you in your own home just because you forgot to close your door.
- captainredbeard 7y ago
  Both of those would be considered extremely rare events. If you pull a gun on federal agents, you are likely to be shot. The Bundy case is an aberration.
  - jandrese 7y ago
    It's the second time in the past two weeks a cop in Texas has killed an innocent person for no good reason.
    - 77pt77 7y ago
      That you know of...
  - rayiner 7y ago
    That’s not true. Federal agents have numerous armed standoffs that don’t result in anyone getting shot. In the recent Oregon standoff, involving 26 armed militiamen, just one person was killed. When someone does get killed, there is often huge public backlash. Consider Ruby Ridge, where a US militant family had an armed standoff with the US Marshall’s after the father missed a court date for an unrelated charge: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge. In an initial firefight, one member of the family and one federal agent were killed. Later, a federal sniper shot and killed the mother, and shot the father. After the incident ended, the father was acquitted of all charges except missing the original court date. One of the sons, who had killed the federal agent, was acquitted of all charges. The government settled wrongful death actions for over $3 million. Several years later, the state prosecutor indicted the federal agent who had killed the mother (though the charges were dismissed after a different prosecutor was elected).
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>not cooperating with the police investigation Here in the US that means "lawyering up instead of being dumb and running his mouth", not sure if it's the same over there. If he was really not cooperative the police would be more than happy to say exactly what (they say) he did.
- himlion 7y ago
  Strong privacy laws prevent them from doing that. I saw an interview with a police officer and they could basically not say anything at all. Most info comes from journalists.
- Scarblac 7y ago
  It's just the smallest, easiest to prove thing that allows them to lock him up for a short time while the investigation is getting started. When they know more about what actually happened they can file more detailed charges.

jackhack 7y ago

arrested for "not cooperating". Perhaps that's against the law there and one can be compelled to cooperate in a general way. I'm more curious about how they paid rent for a decade, without contact with the outside world (e.g. a job-->salary). And how did this man pay for his five beers? There's an interesting story here, but to my American mind I don't see evidence of a crime unless some were being held against their will.

haasted 7y ago
Based on the bar-chatter, it sounds like the boy was being held against his will. There’s probably also a case of negligence to be made. Keeping children in basements for a long time is likely to impede their development.
- trentlott 7y ago
  Also schooling? Do they require that you educate your child via the state or (not so) equivalent home-schooling?
  - Scarblac 7y ago
    It is required to let your child go to school and home-schooling does not satisfy that requirement so is in principle illegal. There are a few ways some people do manage to get it allowed (you have to argue that your way of life / religion is fundamentally incompatible with all schools in the region) but expect quite a few visits from suspicious civil cervants and lots of arguing. That's the theory, anyway. How it was possible that these children were never checked on is still under investigation.
  - jandrese 7y ago
    Why bother teaching your children if the world is going to end before they are adults?
    - trentlott 7y ago
      Because it'll get them taken away before the world ends Its an annoying needle to thread

rossdavidh 7y ago

There's what they technically arrested him for, which was apparently not cooperating with a police investigation, and there's why they really arrested him, which is that there is a very strong possibility that he was instrumental in forcing several children to live in a basement for 9 years, but they don't have the evidence sorted out for that charge yet.

ecpottinger 7y ago

Notice, the farm did not belong to him. So where is the owner?

jhncls 7y ago
The current owner is a lady married to a local politician. She inherited the farm 4 years ago from her aunt. She visited the property a few times and never noticed something suspicious. The rent was paid for promptly every month. Many questions remain unanswered. article in Dutch: https://www.rtvdrenthe.nl/nieuws/153066/Eigenaresse-boerderij-Ruinerwold-Ik-heb-nooit-iets-ondeugdelijks-gezien https://www.rtvdrenthe.nl/nieuws/153066/Eigenaresse-boerderi...
- 77pt77 7y ago
  Where did the money come from?
  - jhncls 7y ago
    The 58 year old was an excellent carpenter, specialized in ship interiors. He did not live at the farm, but visited it daily with food and stuff such as toilet paper. Towards the outside world he was just refurbishing the old farm. Very weird story.

PeterisP 7y ago

The article does mention that the man claimed to have "ran away" and requested help to enable his younger siblings to "end the way they were living", so that kind of does imply that at least some members of that family have been held there against their will.

walshemj 7y ago

I would suspect that anti slavery laws could be used and yes there is such a thing, in the UK it's normally gang masters keeping agricultural workers.

FraKtus 7y ago

Well, he was not educating his childrens. Not sure about the law, but too me, it's serious misconduct.

furyg3 7y ago

From what I've gathered reading Dutch sources: * The man wasn't cooperating with a police investigation as to whether or not people are being held there against their will (at least one person - the escaped 25 year old 'boy' - said he had been). * While the children are now adults, it appears as if they never went to school (illegal in NL, with some homeschooling exceptions, but this must be formerly arranged). * It appears as if (at least some of) the kids were also never registered. This is also illegal in NL. * The above two facts are probably considered to be child abuse and may be part of a larger pattern of abuse now that they are adults.

LifeLiverTransp 7y ago

Usually shizophren parents, who create a world of horrors to keep there children under control.