4 ms·

> (in Germany we track you place of residence basically from birth, it's used not just for voting but also for determining where your taxes go, for government c

> (in Germany we track you place of residence basically from birth, it's used not just for voting but also for determining where your taxes go, for government communication, to make sure nobody skips out on bills by moving, etc). If we tried to institute that kind of system, the political party which currently is all against voter id would be up in arms too.

pjc50 7y ago
Hardly. The Republicans are against databases, population registration, ID cards, and gun tracking databases. It's only the voter ID they're in favour of.
ebiester 7y ago
So long as it isn't used to disenfranchise people from a single vote, there's no problem. Now, things get complicated and we would have to do work to get it right in that we have inconsistent rules on residency in terms of students and temporary housing, and we have a significant number of people who don't want to see a national registry of citizens (see issues with using SSN as a national ID) but there's nothing specifically that Democrats would object to philosophically. The problem comes when we start trying to purge the rolls and there are false positives. The bigger problem is when those false positives are disproportionately citizens of color. Similarly, voter ID cards are not problems philosophically as much as these ID laws disproportionately affecting poor people and people of color. If you want an ID law, you make IDs free, you account for many of the edge cases like elderly people who don't have birth certificates yet are clearly citizens, and you bend over backwards to make sure everyone who can vote gets one regardless of it costing a little more.
- CompanionCuuube 7y ago
  > So long as it isn't used to disenfranchise people from a single vote, there's no problem. And you believe it's the Republicans who are hating on immigration enforcement? The proposal for tracking everyone's residence not going to fly(coincidentally another thing you need id to do) with those people.
  - ebiester 7y ago
    Immigration enforcement is easy. Jail every CEO and executive team that hires undocumented immigrants, and fine the company or individual $100 per hour of work from undocumented labor. If you have a threat of jail time or bankruptcy, you won't hire undocumented workers. If you are a farmer who uses undocumented workers, same thing. Put the onus on wealthy citizens for doing the wrong thing and have real consequences. Have sting operations. Yes, there's a basic underground economy of labor like maids, but that's a small portion of the undocumented economy. Then, create a Real immigration system that does not have 15 year wait systems. (http://www.openlawlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMmigration-Law-Comic-Terry-Colon-Reason.jpg http://www.openlawlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMmigra...) Fix the H-2A guest worker program. (See https://www.farmworkerjustice.org/advocacy-and-programs/guestworker-programs https://www.farmworkerjustice.org/advocacy-and-programs/gues... ) Provide pathways to citizenship. Replace the H1-B program with one that is not exploitative. (permission to change jobs? Immediate deportation if you lose a job and don't immediately have another?) Accept that grocery and dining prices will rise. Oh, and don't put kids in cages. Treat asylum claimants as human. Provide pathways to legal status. The problem is that every Republican solution is based on punishing those who are poor and turns a blind eye to those who are wealthy.
    - CompanionCuuube 7y ago
      So assume a spherical cow and immigration enforcement is "easy". Don't let that get in the way of actually responding to the objection regarding tracking of the residents of the US. But tell us how you really feel.
      - ebiester 7y ago
        That tracking is already being done. It is just poorly coordinated. Social Security is not a national ID. Hell, many men have a number due to "Selective Service" (AKA the draft that hasn't happened since Vietnam). Three companies have our entire address history unless we don't have credit cards. Our phone numbers are tied to us and our GPS is tied to our phones. The vast majority of us are tied to biometrics due to Real ID. We are all tracked when it matters. We already lost that battle. And we are tracked when we register to vote.
- 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
  In Germany and Europe (UK is outliner) you pay a fee for ID card, but it's valid for 10 years or so and cost is around 20-30 euro. Really don't understand what's the panic about in America, you don't have to do and pay it every year.
  - ebiester 7y ago
    Germany hasn't had an issue with making it more difficult for minorities to vote since WWII. This was an attempt from last year: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/us/randolph-county-georgia-voting.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/us/randolph-county-georgi... - It took a fair amount of protesting to stop it.
  - CompanionCuuube 7y ago
    That's a lot of assumptions. 1. The people can keep track of a card for 10 years. 2. They can afford to pay 20-30 Euros for something they only use for voting, since apparently they aren't involved in any other part of civic life that involves having an id.
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pjc50 7y ago

Hardly. The Republicans are against databases, population registration, ID cards, and gun tracking databases. It's only the voter ID they're in favour of.

ebiester 7y ago

So long as it isn't used to disenfranchise people from a single vote, there's no problem. Now, things get complicated and we would have to do work to get it right in that we have inconsistent rules on residency in terms of students and temporary housing, and we have a significant number of people who don't want to see a national registry of citizens (see issues with using SSN as a national ID) but there's nothing specifically that Democrats would object to philosophically. The problem comes when we start trying to purge the rolls and there are false positives. The bigger problem is when those false positives are disproportionately citizens of color. Similarly, voter ID cards are not problems philosophically as much as these ID laws disproportionately affecting poor people and people of color. If you want an ID law, you make IDs free, you account for many of the edge cases like elderly people who don't have birth certificates yet are clearly citizens, and you bend over backwards to make sure everyone who can vote gets one regardless of it costing a little more.

CompanionCuuube 7y ago
> So long as it isn't used to disenfranchise people from a single vote, there's no problem. And you believe it's the Republicans who are hating on immigration enforcement? The proposal for tracking everyone's residence not going to fly(coincidentally another thing you need id to do) with those people.
- ebiester 7y ago
  Immigration enforcement is easy. Jail every CEO and executive team that hires undocumented immigrants, and fine the company or individual $100 per hour of work from undocumented labor. If you have a threat of jail time or bankruptcy, you won't hire undocumented workers. If you are a farmer who uses undocumented workers, same thing. Put the onus on wealthy citizens for doing the wrong thing and have real consequences. Have sting operations. Yes, there's a basic underground economy of labor like maids, but that's a small portion of the undocumented economy. Then, create a Real immigration system that does not have 15 year wait systems. (http://www.openlawlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMmigration-Law-Comic-Terry-Colon-Reason.jpg http://www.openlawlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/IMmigra...) Fix the H-2A guest worker program. (See https://www.farmworkerjustice.org/advocacy-and-programs/guestworker-programs https://www.farmworkerjustice.org/advocacy-and-programs/gues... ) Provide pathways to citizenship. Replace the H1-B program with one that is not exploitative. (permission to change jobs? Immediate deportation if you lose a job and don't immediately have another?) Accept that grocery and dining prices will rise. Oh, and don't put kids in cages. Treat asylum claimants as human. Provide pathways to legal status. The problem is that every Republican solution is based on punishing those who are poor and turns a blind eye to those who are wealthy.
  - CompanionCuuube 7y ago
    So assume a spherical cow and immigration enforcement is "easy". Don't let that get in the way of actually responding to the objection regarding tracking of the residents of the US. But tell us how you really feel.
    - ebiester 7y ago
      That tracking is already being done. It is just poorly coordinated. Social Security is not a national ID. Hell, many men have a number due to "Selective Service" (AKA the draft that hasn't happened since Vietnam). Three companies have our entire address history unless we don't have credit cards. Our phone numbers are tied to us and our GPS is tied to our phones. The vast majority of us are tied to biometrics due to Real ID. We are all tracked when it matters. We already lost that battle. And we are tracked when we register to vote.
9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
In Germany and Europe (UK is outliner) you pay a fee for ID card, but it's valid for 10 years or so and cost is around 20-30 euro. Really don't understand what's the panic about in America, you don't have to do and pay it every year.
- ebiester 7y ago
  Germany hasn't had an issue with making it more difficult for minorities to vote since WWII. This was an attempt from last year: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/us/randolph-county-georgia-voting.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/us/randolph-county-georgi... - It took a fair amount of protesting to stop it.
- CompanionCuuube 7y ago
  That's a lot of assumptions. 1. The people can keep track of a card for 10 years. 2. They can afford to pay 20-30 Euros for something they only use for voting, since apparently they aren't involved in any other part of civic life that involves having an id.

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