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Look, I'm a sociologist so I totally get where you are coming from, but your thougts are mostly tangential. Catalonia can enact his own laws, and it does so. T

Look, I'm a sociologist so I totally get where you are coming from, but your thougts are mostly tangential. Catalonia can enact his own laws, and it does so. There's very little substance if you say "being freed from the chains of Spain". There isn't any massive difference in the understanding of the world between catalans and the rest of the peninsula. You could pimpoint some laws here and there, and some simbols, but it's pretty much it. There's no systemic repression of Catalans of any sorts because of speaking or being Catalan. I know that an independence supporter will disagree and is willing to paste thousands of links here, but IMO from the big picture there's no much substance. They are not loosing autonomy as you said, as it's been happening quite the opposite. There's a lot of stuff happening daily and a lot of propaganda going on. The Catalan government is very good at this, and it's difficult to make foreigners understand how much effort they actually put on this. To give you a glimpse, yesterday they sent their supporters to occupy the Barcelona airport. Politicians are not stupid, and they know that place is guarded by national police and the military. Some time later, as it seemed such actions wouldn't yield any PR material, they've sent their own police. That's the videos foreigners have seen in their media. Obviously, the majority of them don't have to know that Catalans have their own police, and they were sent there coordinated by their own government, that it wasn't spontaneous. And most media won't clarify it. Today, their explanation for internal consumption is that they had to send the Mossos d'esquadra (Catalan police) because they had to "protect the demonstrators from themselves", they were afraid to be accused fo sedition again and some other BS, that of course will be noise tomorrow. I know there's enough speculation in the last two paragraphs, but I worked for them for some time, so I know how they think. And that's my take on it because, if it wasn't for that, it would be absurd to send your people somewhere and then beat em just because. And this stuff is happening on a Weekly basis. Now, you think the most pragmatic solution would be just accept "the fact" that Spain lost Catalonia, and that it has to become another country. Now, what happens with half the catalans that want to remain spanish? Do we just forget about them? What if they become violent? What would do the Catalan Government if they become their own country and half its population does the same they have been doing? What if they win elections and want to rejoin? (I forgot, that wouldn't be possible under the new catalan law, they wanted to make parties against secession illegal), are we going to split and join multiple times because of this? I mean, there's a lot to put in a cost/benefit analysis and from my POV is unclear at best. There's no clear solution to avoid conflict even if we splitted to day and we had it in good terms. And I'm not even mentioning that the most probably economic outcome for Catalonia would be to suffer massively due to loosing it's status with the EU, not being anymore the preferred port for trading with Spain and basically loosing it's status as an asset for Spain. It's natural for everyone to try to frame events in a local setting, but take in account that you are not just witnessing two ants fighting for a piece a bread, but organizations with a lot of power and resources, that actively try to shape your opinion on the issue.

hilbert42 7y ago
Yes, you are quite correct in that my arguments are mostly tangential; they are in fact just that. It's pretty clear that I'm coming from the much broader perspective of the very real problems of modern-day democratic politics, and I did say that I was 'at the risk of oversimplifying these complex issues', and it seems from your comments, that perhaps I did over do it. As a sociologist you will be cognizant of the fact that every survey taken in democratic countries in recent times about governance and democracy shows that about 80% of the population seriously claim that democracy has failed them. As I see it, it's a huge problem and I agree that the Catalonian issue is a small and almost significant part of that. I'd only add that I'm old enough to vividly remember the horrible bombing and killings in that part of the world and thus I've developed a long-held view that with the 'right' triggers that they could easily happen again.
capableweb 7y ago
> Catalonia can enact his own laws, and it does so. Sorry for just pointing out one thing, but it was what you started with so I feel the need to correct it. Yes, Catalonia can enact their own laws. But even if they do, Spain reserve the right to override them, with what they feel like. Catalans I've spoken to, have expressed this to be a pain point, especially when the relations to Madrid are poor. Madrid can always regain control over Catalonia according to it's laws, and them having this ability, makes peoples drive to independence stronger.
- iagovar 7y ago
  > with what they feel like. Catalan (and other nationalists) are key to form governments on Spain, specially the last two or three legislatures, so this is highly debatable at best. Some laws that were not passed/revoked in the central parliament have been precisely because of the vote of such parties. A party can be both in its autonomous and central parliament. And this has been the case for decades. I know what independence supporters feel about, but there's no substance to an argument where Catalans are ignored or overruled from the central parliament because of any sort of authoritarian rule, because they are integral and important part of how power is distributed and managed in such institution.

hilbert42 7y ago

Yes, you are quite correct in that my arguments are mostly tangential; they are in fact just that. It's pretty clear that I'm coming from the much broader perspective of the very real problems of modern-day democratic politics, and I did say that I was 'at the risk of oversimplifying these complex issues', and it seems from your comments, that perhaps I did over do it. As a sociologist you will be cognizant of the fact that every survey taken in democratic countries in recent times about governance and democracy shows that about 80% of the population seriously claim that democracy has failed them. As I see it, it's a huge problem and I agree that the Catalonian issue is a small and almost significant part of that. I'd only add that I'm old enough to vividly remember the horrible bombing and killings in that part of the world and thus I've developed a long-held view that with the 'right' triggers that they could easily happen again.

capableweb 7y ago

> Catalonia can enact his own laws, and it does so. Sorry for just pointing out one thing, but it was what you started with so I feel the need to correct it. Yes, Catalonia can enact their own laws. But even if they do, Spain reserve the right to override them, with what they feel like. Catalans I've spoken to, have expressed this to be a pain point, especially when the relations to Madrid are poor. Madrid can always regain control over Catalonia according to it's laws, and them having this ability, makes peoples drive to independence stronger.

iagovar 7y ago
> with what they feel like. Catalan (and other nationalists) are key to form governments on Spain, specially the last two or three legislatures, so this is highly debatable at best. Some laws that were not passed/revoked in the central parliament have been precisely because of the vote of such parties. A party can be both in its autonomous and central parliament. And this has been the case for decades. I know what independence supporters feel about, but there's no substance to an argument where Catalans are ignored or overruled from the central parliament because of any sort of authoritarian rule, because they are integral and important part of how power is distributed and managed in such institution.