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Good. The rise of the MBA has seen the downfall of quality. "Business Administration" is not something that can be taught in such a generic way that an MBA qua

by rswail 7y ago

Good. The rise of the MBA has seen the downfall of quality. "Business Administration" is not something that can be taught in such a generic way that an MBA qualifies you to actually run a business. In particular, the rise of Financial "Engineering" has led to huge inequality and the total disconnection of "Wall St" from "Main St" such that their relationship has been completely inverted.

duxup 7y ago
There were some good articles that seemed to indicate a serious imbalance in the number of high quality students headed to Wall St. to play with numbers and get rich there there, and in theory this was to the determent of the rest of the economy where their skills were not producing anything.
- kyle_v 7y ago
  "where their skills were not producing anything" If this is the case why do so many companies seek going public?
  - rswail 7y ago
    Becoming a public company is a way to get equity investment. That is the purpose of the stock market. It was the original purpose of "investment banks" as opposed to "retail banks". However, that is not what the bankers of Wall Street now focus on, they are more involved in producing "financial products", packaging arcane structures primarily to encourage trading and thus fees from mindless turnover.
    - sailfast 7y ago
      Packaging arcane structures and securitizing them has a huge impact on overall risk in the market and enables pretty significant cost reductions downstream (generally) in the markets that can offload the risk via the security. I understand there are bad actors as well as people making the trades that make money, but there is also an underlying reason the trades get made, typically that is often discounted by your argument and should be factored in. The reason we can click a button and get a loan is because it is not extremely risky for the company to make the loan, because of said instruments (as an example)
  - aswanson 7y ago
    There is a bloat of capital seeking any and all possibility for growth. Even money-destroying companies are going public because growth-chasing has become so desperate.
  - MiroF 7y ago
    "If this is the case why do so many companies seek going public?" Do you think the majority of people working in Wall St are involved in IPO value creation?
  - tossaway1717 7y ago
    Do they? ==About 3,600 firms were listed on U.S. stock exchanges at the end of 2017, down more than half from 1997.== https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-04-09/where-have-all-the-u-s-public-companies-gone https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-04-09/where-...
Vaslo 7y ago
You clearly have no idea what is being taught in Top 20 MBA programs. Many MBA programs are graduating people that get both heavy technical training in their program (stats, data engineering, coding, etc) as well as learning how to properly manage individuals with technical skills.
- rswail 7y ago
  You clearly have no idea about what I know or don't know about MBA programs or my overall experience or career. I'm not saying that the skills taught are not useful, what I'm saying is that the concept of a generalized "business administration" course that somehow qualifies you to run any and all businesses is basically flawed. Management is a skill or craft, not a profession. Harvard's model of case studies is a useful skill training technique, but anecdata doesn't make a science.
  - aswanson 7y ago
    HBS is also a trailer in terms of what is on the horizon and is an indicator of what not to do. There are studies done showing that most of the grads chase the worst fad at the worst time. In 1989 they were all chasing Japanese manufacturing consultancies, in 1999, all internet ceo jobs, etc. They're never predictive, just chasing what seems hot.
  - vo2maxer 7y ago
    When I applied for an MBA, Harvard was known for a strong general management program as distinct from Wharton’s more quantitative and finance oriented. I chose the latter precisely because of this emphasis. I entered with years of experience in the medical field, and much older than most students (I did the full time program). Did it help me later with anything? Not really, other than the prestige associated with it and getting the top C-level job at a large medical group. Would I do it again? No. I wish I’d had the foresight to go for CS (early 90s), which I’m furiously self-teaching now. I’ve (mildly) encouraged my kids to stay away from the MBA fluff, even from Medicine, and go for hard science, mathematics, and computer science.
    - 7y ago
Lavery 7y ago
On a forum so enmeshed in tech and startup culture as this one, yours is a particularly hot take.
darkcha0s 7y ago
Amen.
airstrike 7y ago
It's not really that generalized as you can pick 1 or more majors and focus on what you want to learn most. Not to mention each MBA school has different characteristics, attracting different candidates and campus recruiters. Stanford and Booth couldn't be more different if they tried. MBA graduates are also not fit for running literally any business. The only thing employers know is that if you come from a top 10 MBA, you probably check the box on being pretty smart (the GMAT is a tough exam) while also possessing soft skills, being personable, ready to meet with clients or manage people and probably well-connected. It's a pedigree that allegedly excludes the dumb rich kids Now your claim about Wall Street is just uninformed FUD. Most people on the street do not have an MBA, let alone one from a top school, particularly on the Sales & Trading branch of Wall Street that is usually what people associate with poor ethics and exploiting Main Street
- notfromhere 7y ago
  Folks on the trading side definitely don't. Folks on the PE side definitely do, especially the decisionmakers
  - semiotagonal 7y ago
    Trading seems to have people from a very wide variety of backgrounds and capabilities. I think it's the result of random events being the most significant filtering mechanism. Anyone can get burned on a trade at any time, so staying in the game doesn't really depend on anyone's qualifications or abilities.
    - notfromhere 7y ago
      Feel like for trading you either have it or don't, and no pedigree will save you on a bad trade.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - airstrike 7y ago
clairity 7y ago
> "The rise of the MBA has seen the downfall of quality." specious and unsupported statement. what "quality" are you talking about? what "downfall" has there been? when, how and why did "it" rise in the first place? you're making a fundamental attribution error (a topic taught in an MBA program, no less) by hinting at structural issues that are much wider and far-reaching than a simple graduate degree. make a reasoned point rather than trotting out a trite boogeyman.
- airstrike 7y ago
  All great points. I'd also add "the rise of the MBA" really happened 50+ years ago...
- ethbro 7y ago
  The reorientation of companies, driven by MBA conventional wisdom, into shareholder-centric, stock-price optimizing machines has come at the detriment of building long term value and delivering better products to customers. Rebuttal? And let's center our conversation on the average MBA graduate. I'm sure there are schools with different approaches, but no true Scotsman doesn't seem like it would be productive.
  - airstrike 7y ago
    > has come at the detriment of building long term value and delivering better products to customers. Sent from my iPhone
    - ryanmercer 7y ago
      *Sent from my iPhone John Jones Smith III, MBA CSSGB/CSSBB BLT USA PB&J Office: 555-555-5555 Cell: 555-555-5556 Fax: 555-555-5557 Secretary: 555-555-5558 Random Latin Quote INSERT Professional head shot/INSERT Company Website INSERT Company logo /INSERT
  - jevgeni 7y ago
    @airstrike is pretty on point, but here's some more. A private business is always shareholder centric. Anything else would be schizophrenic. Non-profits and government organisations are different, but thinking that people start a business NOT because they want to earn money is insane. What you are talking about is the agency problem where CEOs manipulate financials of a company to reach their bonus targets. That's only possible for public traded companies and it's a well-known problem in organisational behaviour. Thing is, there is no connection with an MBA degree. It would be great if people needed an MBA before they would be corrupted by power, but unfortunately it's not the case.
noipv4 7y ago
'MBA stereotype: arrogant, entitled pricks whose life plan from high school was get the right grades, do the right extracurricular activities, go to the right college, get the right grades, get the right internship, get the right job, kiss everyone's ass and get good evaluations, get the right GMAT score, get into HBS, and then be anointed as the elite, highly-paid business person that they were born to be. They were process-oriented people who didn't care about creating value, they just wanted their slice of the pie.'
sjdb77 7y ago
If I got into HBS or Stanford GSB I would definitely go still. If you do it right (e.g. invest in building relationships with other students, professors, investors) the ROI is massive.
- loco5niner 7y ago
  > the ROI is massive For the individual holding the MBA

by rswail 7y ago

duxup 7y ago

There were some good articles that seemed to indicate a serious imbalance in the number of high quality students headed to Wall St. to play with numbers and get rich there there, and in theory this was to the determent of the rest of the economy where their skills were not producing anything.

kyle_v 7y ago
"where their skills were not producing anything" If this is the case why do so many companies seek going public?
- rswail 7y ago
  Becoming a public company is a way to get equity investment. That is the purpose of the stock market. It was the original purpose of "investment banks" as opposed to "retail banks". However, that is not what the bankers of Wall Street now focus on, they are more involved in producing "financial products", packaging arcane structures primarily to encourage trading and thus fees from mindless turnover.
  - sailfast 7y ago
    Packaging arcane structures and securitizing them has a huge impact on overall risk in the market and enables pretty significant cost reductions downstream (generally) in the markets that can offload the risk via the security. I understand there are bad actors as well as people making the trades that make money, but there is also an underlying reason the trades get made, typically that is often discounted by your argument and should be factored in. The reason we can click a button and get a loan is because it is not extremely risky for the company to make the loan, because of said instruments (as an example)
- aswanson 7y ago
  There is a bloat of capital seeking any and all possibility for growth. Even money-destroying companies are going public because growth-chasing has become so desperate.
- MiroF 7y ago
  "If this is the case why do so many companies seek going public?" Do you think the majority of people working in Wall St are involved in IPO value creation?
- tossaway1717 7y ago
  Do they? ==About 3,600 firms were listed on U.S. stock exchanges at the end of 2017, down more than half from 1997.== https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-04-09/where-have-all-the-u-s-public-companies-gone https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-04-09/where-...

Vaslo 7y ago

You clearly have no idea what is being taught in Top 20 MBA programs. Many MBA programs are graduating people that get both heavy technical training in their program (stats, data engineering, coding, etc) as well as learning how to properly manage individuals with technical skills.

rswail 7y ago
You clearly have no idea about what I know or don't know about MBA programs or my overall experience or career. I'm not saying that the skills taught are not useful, what I'm saying is that the concept of a generalized "business administration" course that somehow qualifies you to run any and all businesses is basically flawed. Management is a skill or craft, not a profession. Harvard's model of case studies is a useful skill training technique, but anecdata doesn't make a science.
- aswanson 7y ago
  HBS is also a trailer in terms of what is on the horizon and is an indicator of what not to do. There are studies done showing that most of the grads chase the worst fad at the worst time. In 1989 they were all chasing Japanese manufacturing consultancies, in 1999, all internet ceo jobs, etc. They're never predictive, just chasing what seems hot.
- vo2maxer 7y ago
  When I applied for an MBA, Harvard was known for a strong general management program as distinct from Wharton’s more quantitative and finance oriented. I chose the latter precisely because of this emphasis. I entered with years of experience in the medical field, and much older than most students (I did the full time program). Did it help me later with anything? Not really, other than the prestige associated with it and getting the top C-level job at a large medical group. Would I do it again? No. I wish I’d had the foresight to go for CS (early 90s), which I’m furiously self-teaching now. I’ve (mildly) encouraged my kids to stay away from the MBA fluff, even from Medicine, and go for hard science, mathematics, and computer science.
  - 7y ago

Lavery 7y ago

On a forum so enmeshed in tech and startup culture as this one, yours is a particularly hot take.

darkcha0s 7y ago

Amen.

airstrike 7y ago

It's not really that generalized as you can pick 1 or more majors and focus on what you want to learn most. Not to mention each MBA school has different characteristics, attracting different candidates and campus recruiters. Stanford and Booth couldn't be more different if they tried. MBA graduates are also not fit for running literally any business. The only thing employers know is that if you come from a top 10 MBA, you probably check the box on being pretty smart (the GMAT is a tough exam) while also possessing soft skills, being personable, ready to meet with clients or manage people and probably well-connected. It's a pedigree that allegedly excludes the dumb rich kids Now your claim about Wall Street is just uninformed FUD. Most people on the street do not have an MBA, let alone one from a top school, particularly on the Sales & Trading branch of Wall Street that is usually what people associate with poor ethics and exploiting Main Street

notfromhere 7y ago
Folks on the trading side definitely don't. Folks on the PE side definitely do, especially the decisionmakers
- semiotagonal 7y ago
  Trading seems to have people from a very wide variety of backgrounds and capabilities. I think it's the result of random events being the most significant filtering mechanism. Anyone can get burned on a trade at any time, so staying in the game doesn't really depend on anyone's qualifications or abilities.
  - notfromhere 7y ago
    Feel like for trading you either have it or don't, and no pedigree will save you on a bad trade.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - airstrike 7y ago

clairity 7y ago

> "The rise of the MBA has seen the downfall of quality." specious and unsupported statement. what "quality" are you talking about? what "downfall" has there been? when, how and why did "it" rise in the first place? you're making a fundamental attribution error (a topic taught in an MBA program, no less) by hinting at structural issues that are much wider and far-reaching than a simple graduate degree. make a reasoned point rather than trotting out a trite boogeyman.

airstrike 7y ago
All great points. I'd also add "the rise of the MBA" really happened 50+ years ago...
ethbro 7y ago
The reorientation of companies, driven by MBA conventional wisdom, into shareholder-centric, stock-price optimizing machines has come at the detriment of building long term value and delivering better products to customers. Rebuttal? And let's center our conversation on the average MBA graduate. I'm sure there are schools with different approaches, but no true Scotsman doesn't seem like it would be productive.
- airstrike 7y ago
  > has come at the detriment of building long term value and delivering better products to customers. Sent from my iPhone
  - ryanmercer 7y ago
    *Sent from my iPhone John Jones Smith III, MBA CSSGB/CSSBB BLT USA PB&J Office: 555-555-5555 Cell: 555-555-5556 Fax: 555-555-5557 Secretary: 555-555-5558 Random Latin Quote INSERT Professional head shot/INSERT Company Website INSERT Company logo /INSERT
- jevgeni 7y ago
  @airstrike is pretty on point, but here's some more. A private business is always shareholder centric. Anything else would be schizophrenic. Non-profits and government organisations are different, but thinking that people start a business NOT because they want to earn money is insane. What you are talking about is the agency problem where CEOs manipulate financials of a company to reach their bonus targets. That's only possible for public traded companies and it's a well-known problem in organisational behaviour. Thing is, there is no connection with an MBA degree. It would be great if people needed an MBA before they would be corrupted by power, but unfortunately it's not the case.

noipv4 7y ago

'MBA stereotype: arrogant, entitled pricks whose life plan from high school was get the right grades, do the right extracurricular activities, go to the right college, get the right grades, get the right internship, get the right job, kiss everyone's ass and get good evaluations, get the right GMAT score, get into HBS, and then be anointed as the elite, highly-paid business person that they were born to be. They were process-oriented people who didn't care about creating value, they just wanted their slice of the pie.'

sjdb77 7y ago

If I got into HBS or Stanford GSB I would definitely go still. If you do it right (e.g. invest in building relationships with other students, professors, investors) the ROI is massive.

loco5niner 7y ago
> the ROI is massive For the individual holding the MBA