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I think you misunderstood my comment. >The thing is, if you look at IQ and ability to pass a math class, they do correlate strongly. In fact, we actually agre

I think you misunderstood my comment. >The thing is, if you look at IQ and ability to pass a math class, they do correlate strongly. In fact, we actually agree here. My point can maybe be explained in a different way: So does playing chess at a high level, or I'd bet even probably even MMR in Dota does as well. Once you consider this, you may go the next step and ask what better methods test for ability to pass a math class (perform other tasks successfully). For example, consider that I know someone who has a far greater ability than I to learn a new language; while I have a greater ability with math.

lliamander 7y ago
> So does playing chess at a high level, or I'd bet even probably even MMR in Dota does as well. Once you consider this, you may go the next step and ask what better methods test for ability to pass a math class (perform other tasks successfully). I would agree that playing Chess and Dota are both probably pretty good predictors. What kinds of abilities do you need to play Chess (or Dota) at a high level? Abstract reasoning, mental quickness, and a good working memory. What about an IQ test? An IQ test is just a random sampling of problems that test abstract reasoning, mental quickness, and a good working memory. If you iteratively give people a series of IQ tests there will be some variation in their score from test to test, but what you will find is that over time the average of their scores converges. This convergence is why researchers believe there is a single main factor of intelligence (g). Now, there are still things aside from intelligence that relate to the ability to pass a math class (or any class). A big one is Conscientiousness. It's a facet of personality that basically has to do with how organized and hardworking someone is. It is the second strongest single predictor of overall life success next to IQ (although even with both factors combined there's still a lot of the variance in life success left unexplained). My contention is that Mensa membership tends to select for people who have low conscientiousness. > For example, consider that I know someone who has a far greater ability than I to learn a new language; while I have a greater ability with math. So there are different sub-factors of general intelligence[1]. That does not mean that there still isn't a general factor of intelligence, because all of these factors do still correlate pretty stongly with one another. However, I've heard that towards the high end of IQ, there does tend to be a greater distance between the sub-factors. In other words, a person of average intelligence is likely to be average in all of the categories, whereas a person of high-intelligence is more likely to be especially gifted in one or two areas (though still pretty good in the rest). [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattell%E2%80%93Horn%E2%80%93Carroll_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattell%E2%80%93Horn%E2%80%93C...
- wallace_f 7y ago
  Something about IQ which we forget is that people with exceptionally high IQ scores are not necessarily exceptionally intelligent. They are good at answering the types of questions on IQ tests. I would agree with you that it is likely true that generally intelligent people will generally be generally better at scoring higher on IQ tests. Are there any formal studies you are aware of which compare IQ tests as a predictor of success with other intelligence tests, or just other tests?
  - lliamander 7y ago
    > Something about IQ which we forget is that people with exceptionally high IQ scores are not necessarily exceptionally intelligent. I don't know that I "forget" that so much as I don't believe that. I mean, I acknowledge that IQ is not the same thing as intelligence, but it is a very strong proxy. You can avoid the risk people receiving unrepresentative scores by just having them take multiple IQ tests. The more different tests they take, the more their average score will converge on a particular IQ value. EDIT: > Are there any formal studies you are aware of which compare IQ tests as a predictor of success with other intelligence tests, or just other tests? Of life success, or success in a math class? I mean, I'm sure their are for both, though I don't have citations for either at the moment. WRT to life success, I do know that while in some sense it is not an especially strong predictor, it is the strongest single predictor we have (even more than the socio-economic status they were born into). The fact that even then it doesn't account form more then half the variance in life outcomes makes sense to me. Life's complicated, and many different factors play into success.

lliamander 7y ago

> So does playing chess at a high level, or I'd bet even probably even MMR in Dota does as well. Once you consider this, you may go the next step and ask what better methods test for ability to pass a math class (perform other tasks successfully). I would agree that playing Chess and Dota are both probably pretty good predictors. What kinds of abilities do you need to play Chess (or Dota) at a high level? Abstract reasoning, mental quickness, and a good working memory. What about an IQ test? An IQ test is just a random sampling of problems that test abstract reasoning, mental quickness, and a good working memory. If you iteratively give people a series of IQ tests there will be some variation in their score from test to test, but what you will find is that over time the average of their scores converges. This convergence is why researchers believe there is a single main factor of intelligence (g). Now, there are still things aside from intelligence that relate to the ability to pass a math class (or any class). A big one is Conscientiousness. It's a facet of personality that basically has to do with how organized and hardworking someone is. It is the second strongest single predictor of overall life success next to IQ (although even with both factors combined there's still a lot of the variance in life success left unexplained). My contention is that Mensa membership tends to select for people who have low conscientiousness. > For example, consider that I know someone who has a far greater ability than I to learn a new language; while I have a greater ability with math. So there are different sub-factors of general intelligence[1]. That does not mean that there still isn't a general factor of intelligence, because all of these factors do still correlate pretty stongly with one another. However, I've heard that towards the high end of IQ, there does tend to be a greater distance between the sub-factors. In other words, a person of average intelligence is likely to be average in all of the categories, whereas a person of high-intelligence is more likely to be especially gifted in one or two areas (though still pretty good in the rest). [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattell%E2%80%93Horn%E2%80%93Carroll_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattell%E2%80%93Horn%E2%80%93C...

wallace_f 7y ago
Something about IQ which we forget is that people with exceptionally high IQ scores are not necessarily exceptionally intelligent. They are good at answering the types of questions on IQ tests. I would agree with you that it is likely true that generally intelligent people will generally be generally better at scoring higher on IQ tests. Are there any formal studies you are aware of which compare IQ tests as a predictor of success with other intelligence tests, or just other tests?
- lliamander 7y ago
  > Something about IQ which we forget is that people with exceptionally high IQ scores are not necessarily exceptionally intelligent. I don't know that I "forget" that so much as I don't believe that. I mean, I acknowledge that IQ is not the same thing as intelligence, but it is a very strong proxy. You can avoid the risk people receiving unrepresentative scores by just having them take multiple IQ tests. The more different tests they take, the more their average score will converge on a particular IQ value. EDIT: > Are there any formal studies you are aware of which compare IQ tests as a predictor of success with other intelligence tests, or just other tests? Of life success, or success in a math class? I mean, I'm sure their are for both, though I don't have citations for either at the moment. WRT to life success, I do know that while in some sense it is not an especially strong predictor, it is the strongest single predictor we have (even more than the socio-economic status they were born into). The fact that even then it doesn't account form more then half the variance in life outcomes makes sense to me. Life's complicated, and many different factors play into success.