4 ms·

funny you say that because growth mindset seems to be one of the clearest examples of modern feel-good science. invariably when a topic about intelligence gets

funny you say that because growth mindset seems to be one of the clearest examples of modern feel-good science. invariably when a topic about intelligence gets posted we need someone to come around with an IQ around the 140 mark (I have no reason to doubt they are being honest fwiw) to tell us how because they personally failed, genetic intelligence is really unimportant (smarter rebuttals acknowledge that genetics plays a major role in intelligence, but that IQ is a really poor proxy of this, which is debatable). this ultimately culminates in Almost Everyone Can Be Good At Almost Everything If They Try Hard With A Good Minset, The Growth Mindset. the science is weak. it's baffling how her book can be a "must-read". https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/08/no-clarity-around-growth-mindset-yet/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/08/no-clarity-around-grow... https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/05/07/growth-mindset-4-growth-of-office/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/05/07/growth-mindset-4-growt... https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/what-is-your-mindset https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/what-is-your-mindset https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Dweck#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Dweck#Criticism edit: this article only addresses MENSA members, so i think this submission is bad. most well-adjusted intelligent people want nothing to do with MENSA. so even the claims of the submission are questionable.

kick 7y ago
Credible sources, please? Buzzfeed and a Wordpress blog don't lend much credence.
- Kaveren 7y ago
  judge the articles based on their merits. they're not hiding their sources, you can go check the study of 5,000 british students if you want to read it yourself. ironic because you'd think that if buzzfeed was as bad as its reputation, being a left-leaning outlet, it would be reasonable to assume they'd be in favor of growth mindset.
  - rjf72 7y ago
    Imagine two worlds. In one world all people are completely and absolutely identical and unable to change themselves in any meaningful way. In the other world people are all completely identical, but able to radically reshape themselves as they see fit. In one world an individuals actions and decisions would largely determine their outcome. In the other world things completely outside of an individual's control would be the primary determining factors in their outcome. One of these worlds would imply the need for systems directly subsidizing those who fail to achieve. In the other world, poor outcomes would be attributable in large part to poor decisions. The latter scenario doesn't necessarily preclude a subsidization of those who fail to succeed, but it makes it a much more tenuous proposition.
- concordDance 7y ago
  Oddly enough, slatestarcodex is considered a highly reputable source. I reccommend checking the sources given in the blog post.
K0SM0S 7y ago
I had no idea the book was so much of a "thing", its name and principles are basically inexistent here (France and nearby countries). People either feel they "are" smart or not, and believe it's forever. More strikingly it's about logical intelligence (IQ), as if that was the major deciding factor for success (it's really not). Hence why I always try to mention Dr Dweck (especially for kids). I trust you've done your research so this isn't a rebuttal — merely a surprised observation. You probably have too much of it in the US (and indeed too much of even a good thing can hurt) whereas we have way too little of it in the EU (at least the "Latin" world). 100% agreed on Mensa (we don't have that here but even I know it's almost a scam).
- GnarfGnarf 7y ago
  Most interesting people I've ever met.
- joshspankit 7y ago
  I would almost suggest Josh Waitzkin’s book “The Art Of Learning” instead of Dr. Dweck’s as his speaks through first-hand experience of the two mindsets while being a child prodigy.
  - K0SM0S 7y ago
    I'll definitely check it out, then. Thanks for the pointer!
- tasogare 7y ago
  I would argue the contrary. France is heavy imprinted with socialism and ideas such as "everything is cultural". There is strong social backlash for even implying that intelligence is (mostly) genetics. The political implications are too strong, in particular for the "vivre ensemble" fantasy. The whole education system is built around the idea that everyone is the same and could success if they work hard enough, which has seriously bad consequences such as universities filled with people who don’t belong there (this is becoming worth and worth as the bar is lowered constantly in lower education). There is shaming about trade schools in most of the country, despite it being a way to succeed and filling jobs needed by society. There is specialized schools and sections for low IQ people but not for higher ones. You better be average to fit and "succeed" at school.
watwut 7y ago
> Almost Everyone Can Be Good At Almost Everything If They Try Hard With A Good Minset The thing here is that many people are convinced that "I just cant learn X at all", so they wont even try. And when they do actualy try, they can become at minimum alright, probably decent and maybe good at X. You see that on both kids and adults. That is where growth mindset comes from. Will everybody be next Beethoven, Michelangelo, Knuth or win the olympic? No. Can healthy person learn to play piano, draw a portrait, write a python script or learn to swim? Absolutely yes.
tonyedgecombe 7y ago
The article does mention that point about MENSA: "It’s also possible that people who join Mensa differ from other people in ways other than just IQ."
- fishnchips 7y ago
  That’s probably quite true, too. I personally found the idea of Mensa the organization unattractive at best, and haven’t much enjoyed the little time I spent with its members.

kick 7y ago

Credible sources, please? Buzzfeed and a Wordpress blog don't lend much credence.

Kaveren 7y ago
judge the articles based on their merits. they're not hiding their sources, you can go check the study of 5,000 british students if you want to read it yourself. ironic because you'd think that if buzzfeed was as bad as its reputation, being a left-leaning outlet, it would be reasonable to assume they'd be in favor of growth mindset.
- rjf72 7y ago
  Imagine two worlds. In one world all people are completely and absolutely identical and unable to change themselves in any meaningful way. In the other world people are all completely identical, but able to radically reshape themselves as they see fit. In one world an individuals actions and decisions would largely determine their outcome. In the other world things completely outside of an individual's control would be the primary determining factors in their outcome. One of these worlds would imply the need for systems directly subsidizing those who fail to achieve. In the other world, poor outcomes would be attributable in large part to poor decisions. The latter scenario doesn't necessarily preclude a subsidization of those who fail to succeed, but it makes it a much more tenuous proposition.
concordDance 7y ago
Oddly enough, slatestarcodex is considered a highly reputable source. I reccommend checking the sources given in the blog post.

K0SM0S 7y ago

I had no idea the book was so much of a "thing", its name and principles are basically inexistent here (France and nearby countries). People either feel they "are" smart or not, and believe it's forever. More strikingly it's about logical intelligence (IQ), as if that was the major deciding factor for success (it's really not). Hence why I always try to mention Dr Dweck (especially for kids). I trust you've done your research so this isn't a rebuttal — merely a surprised observation. You probably have too much of it in the US (and indeed too much of even a good thing can hurt) whereas we have way too little of it in the EU (at least the "Latin" world). 100% agreed on Mensa (we don't have that here but even I know it's almost a scam).

GnarfGnarf 7y ago
Most interesting people I've ever met.
joshspankit 7y ago
I would almost suggest Josh Waitzkin’s book “The Art Of Learning” instead of Dr. Dweck’s as his speaks through first-hand experience of the two mindsets while being a child prodigy.
- K0SM0S 7y ago
  I'll definitely check it out, then. Thanks for the pointer!
tasogare 7y ago
I would argue the contrary. France is heavy imprinted with socialism and ideas such as "everything is cultural". There is strong social backlash for even implying that intelligence is (mostly) genetics. The political implications are too strong, in particular for the "vivre ensemble" fantasy. The whole education system is built around the idea that everyone is the same and could success if they work hard enough, which has seriously bad consequences such as universities filled with people who don’t belong there (this is becoming worth and worth as the bar is lowered constantly in lower education). There is shaming about trade schools in most of the country, despite it being a way to succeed and filling jobs needed by society. There is specialized schools and sections for low IQ people but not for higher ones. You better be average to fit and "succeed" at school.

watwut 7y ago

> Almost Everyone Can Be Good At Almost Everything If They Try Hard With A Good Minset The thing here is that many people are convinced that "I just cant learn X at all", so they wont even try. And when they do actualy try, they can become at minimum alright, probably decent and maybe good at X. You see that on both kids and adults. That is where growth mindset comes from. Will everybody be next Beethoven, Michelangelo, Knuth or win the olympic? No. Can healthy person learn to play piano, draw a portrait, write a python script or learn to swim? Absolutely yes.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago

The article does mention that point about MENSA: "It’s also possible that people who join Mensa differ from other people in ways other than just IQ."

fishnchips 7y ago
That’s probably quite true, too. I personally found the idea of Mensa the organization unattractive at best, and haven’t much enjoyed the little time I spent with its members.