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Anybody can run, but it remains to be seen if anybody has the right incentives to enforce. For Tesla maintaining a highly-available network of super chargers is

Anybody can run, but it remains to be seen if anybody has the right incentives to enforce. For Tesla maintaining a highly-available network of super chargers is business-critical. For McDonald’s it’s probably not. That’s what’s disappointing to me about current deployments by municipalities or retailers. It could be blocked for hours (by a non-EV, too), could be broken, and nobody cares. Volta is probably the least reliable network, as they still get paid for displaying ads whether or not the charger is operational. I agree that smaller operators have more skin in the game.

clouddrover 7y ago
It doesn't remain to be seen. It's how the large operators operate. It's only going to get bigger and better year by year: https://www.drivingelectric.com/news/658/roll-out-shell-ionity-fast-charging-network-begins https://www.drivingelectric.com/news/658/roll-out-shell-ioni... Have a look at how it works at Circle K: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVO6vqGOfGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVO6vqGOfGk
- prostoalex 7y ago
  It will be great if it works as forecasted, but let's remember that VW initial investment into Ionity happened as part of Dieselgate settlement, not due to a surefire business model and profitability of maintaining a large charging network. Is Ionity structured and capitalized in a way to ensure long-term success even if/when a few partners pull out a few years down the road? Tesla was notorious (still is) for flirting with bankruptcy as it burned through massive amount of capital, but at least internally it was understood that expanding the supercharger network would drive the car sales.
  - clouddrover 7y ago
    > Is Ionity structured and capitalized in a way to ensure long-term success even if/when a few partners pull out a few years down the road? It doesn't matter if Ionity fails. Other CCS networks already exist. You're stuck in this closed network perspective. It's like panicking over what will happen if AOL goes bust. The answer is: who cares? There are plenty of other internet providers. If it helps, here's a Tesla Model 3 and an Audi e-tron charging on an Ionity 350kw charger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPrVZtzAqX4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPrVZtzAqX4 Ionity's open to everyone. When will Tesla open its chargers to other EVs?
    - prostoalex 7y ago
      As far as I know, a portion of Tesla's superchargers (and cars) are shipping with a CCS plug. I suspect it's just the matter of financial terms and Tesla's capacity.
      - clouddrover 7y ago
        > a portion of Tesla's superchargers (and cars) are shipping with a CCS plug European chargers and the European Model 3 have CCS plugs, but Tesla disallows other EV brands to use Tesla chargers: https://insideevs.com/news/343728/most-tesla-superchargers-now-retrofitted-with-ccs-plugs-in-europe-video/ https://insideevs.com/news/343728/most-tesla-superchargers-n... > I suspect it's just the matter of financial terms What terms? Ionity's open to everyone already. Tesla doesn't exactly have much leverage here, and they'll have even less leverage as time goes on. Tesla says its mission is to "accelerate the advent of sustainable transport". If that's true then Tesla should open their chargers up to all EVs. Ionity is doing a far better job of Tesla's mission than Tesla is.
        prostoalex 7y ago
        > Tesla doesn't exactly have much leverage here. Ionity: "As of September 2019, IONITY has 140 stations live". Tesla: "1,636 Supercharger Stations with 14,497 Superchargers". I don't think Ionity operates from such incredible leverage position as you imagine them to be, and I think they will have to burn through quite a few billions dollars to match Tesla's capacity. It remains to be seen if those billions of dollars will materialize, but there's no reason not to wish them well - any additional capacity, whether it comes from ChargePoint, evGo, ChargeNow, Volta, etc. is a net positive. With that said, Tesla will probably open up to third parties at some point, provided they can bill on their terms, and they can manage capacity to prioritize Tesla owners. Supercharger overload at popular destinations is probably one of the most common recurrent complaints in the owner groups.
        clouddrover 7y ago
        > I don't think Ionity operates from such incredible leverage position Again, you're thinking terms of closed networks. It's all CCS charge points combined. Tesla doesn't have anything magical to offer them, and will have even less to offer year by year. Tesla can either join the party or keep running a closed network and carry that cost with no business from other EVs. Ultimately the same thing will happen to Tesla's chargers as happens to all closed networks: they either become dead infrastructure or they convert to the common standard. America Online and Prodigy already found that out. Tesla will too.

clouddrover 7y ago

It doesn't remain to be seen. It's how the large operators operate. It's only going to get bigger and better year by year: https://www.drivingelectric.com/news/658/roll-out-shell-ionity-fast-charging-network-begins https://www.drivingelectric.com/news/658/roll-out-shell-ioni... Have a look at how it works at Circle K: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVO6vqGOfGk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVO6vqGOfGk

prostoalex 7y ago
It will be great if it works as forecasted, but let's remember that VW initial investment into Ionity happened as part of Dieselgate settlement, not due to a surefire business model and profitability of maintaining a large charging network. Is Ionity structured and capitalized in a way to ensure long-term success even if/when a few partners pull out a few years down the road? Tesla was notorious (still is) for flirting with bankruptcy as it burned through massive amount of capital, but at least internally it was understood that expanding the supercharger network would drive the car sales.
- clouddrover 7y ago
  > Is Ionity structured and capitalized in a way to ensure long-term success even if/when a few partners pull out a few years down the road? It doesn't matter if Ionity fails. Other CCS networks already exist. You're stuck in this closed network perspective. It's like panicking over what will happen if AOL goes bust. The answer is: who cares? There are plenty of other internet providers. If it helps, here's a Tesla Model 3 and an Audi e-tron charging on an Ionity 350kw charger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPrVZtzAqX4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPrVZtzAqX4 Ionity's open to everyone. When will Tesla open its chargers to other EVs?
  - prostoalex 7y ago
    As far as I know, a portion of Tesla's superchargers (and cars) are shipping with a CCS plug. I suspect it's just the matter of financial terms and Tesla's capacity.
    - clouddrover 7y ago
      > a portion of Tesla's superchargers (and cars) are shipping with a CCS plug European chargers and the European Model 3 have CCS plugs, but Tesla disallows other EV brands to use Tesla chargers: https://insideevs.com/news/343728/most-tesla-superchargers-now-retrofitted-with-ccs-plugs-in-europe-video/ https://insideevs.com/news/343728/most-tesla-superchargers-n... > I suspect it's just the matter of financial terms What terms? Ionity's open to everyone already. Tesla doesn't exactly have much leverage here, and they'll have even less leverage as time goes on. Tesla says its mission is to "accelerate the advent of sustainable transport". If that's true then Tesla should open their chargers up to all EVs. Ionity is doing a far better job of Tesla's mission than Tesla is.
      - prostoalex 7y ago
        > Tesla doesn't exactly have much leverage here. Ionity: "As of September 2019, IONITY has 140 stations live". Tesla: "1,636 Supercharger Stations with 14,497 Superchargers". I don't think Ionity operates from such incredible leverage position as you imagine them to be, and I think they will have to burn through quite a few billions dollars to match Tesla's capacity. It remains to be seen if those billions of dollars will materialize, but there's no reason not to wish them well - any additional capacity, whether it comes from ChargePoint, evGo, ChargeNow, Volta, etc. is a net positive. With that said, Tesla will probably open up to third parties at some point, provided they can bill on their terms, and they can manage capacity to prioritize Tesla owners. Supercharger overload at popular destinations is probably one of the most common recurrent complaints in the owner groups.
        clouddrover 7y ago
        > I don't think Ionity operates from such incredible leverage position Again, you're thinking terms of closed networks. It's all CCS charge points combined. Tesla doesn't have anything magical to offer them, and will have even less to offer year by year. Tesla can either join the party or keep running a closed network and carry that cost with no business from other EVs. Ultimately the same thing will happen to Tesla's chargers as happens to all closed networks: they either become dead infrastructure or they convert to the common standard. America Online and Prodigy already found that out. Tesla will too.