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What a dumb idea. We just wised up and took away the battery API because it was being used for fingerprinting, and now they want to add more permissionless hard

What a dumb idea. We just wised up and took away the battery API because it was being used for fingerprinting, and now they want to add more permissionless hardware info back in. You just know the argument being made is "Light sensor input changes frequently enough that it isn't useful for fingerprinting." But history tells us that literally everything will be used for fingerprinting. Provides a tiny amount of differentiation to maybe identify particular devices? Scoop it up! Or if you're already able to identify a particular person, how about keeping a persistent log of whether they're indoors or outdoors and aggregating that from as many different sites as possible? Collect all the data and store it forever! Maybe it will help sell ads 0.004% more effectively, and there's no downside! IMO, whatever amount of risk this carries clearly outweighs the benefit of websites being able to access my light sensor without asking for permission, because the value of that is 0.

ben_jones 7y ago
It's the web trying to take back share from native by integrating more hardware related APIs i.e. storage, authentication, etc. - driven by large corporations with disproportionate voices in these working groups. I doubt it's even this particular feature, just an ethos of: let's add as much as possible because it'll increase our relevance.
- wlesieutre 7y ago
  Agreed, and I assume the main use case is for websites to be able to offer a "dark UI" like maps apps do, so if you're using it for navigation at night it won't blind you. But here's a crazy idea for them: @media (prefers-color-scheme: dark) { color: white; background-color: black; } That way it doesn't leak any uncontrollable information, and it makes the UI look how I want it to! It can even happen automatically at night if I've set my phone to do that. Downside, if I drive through a tunnel during the day the UI stays bright. I'll live. If they really think they need to access my light sensor, they can ask. Maybe someone wants to make a light meter web app, I don't know. But I do know they have no business accessing sensor hardware without permission. It's like with the battery API, people had this idea that web developers could say "Oh your battery is low, we'll throttle back into low power mode to respect that." But instead, websites are happy to continue burning all the CPU, data, and battery life in the world, because by and large developers aren't paid to give a shit about your battery. They're paid to ship features and make whatever metrics go up. So the only thing it gets used for is identifying phones for advertiser targeting.
throwaway_bad 7y ago
> But history tells us that literally everything will be used for fingerprinting I don't think you realize how right you are. Fingerprinting is eventually going to be a lost cause. In 10 years or so, we will have the tech to fingerprint anyone just by their writing style (some companies even claim to be able to do this already today). What do you do then? Ban posting stuff online?
- gruez 7y ago
  >In 10 years or so, we will have the tech to fingerprint anyone just by their writing style (some companies even claim to be able to do that already today). ...given a large enough corpus of text. I doubt that you're able to pick up much from a dozen 1 sentence replies on reddit, for instance. You could even use some sort of neural network based sentence transformer to scramble the structure without significantly altering the meaning.
  - throwaway_bad 7y ago
    I am not sure it has to be too large. It only takes 33 bits of information to identify 1 person out of 7 billion. How many bits did you lose just by talking about neural networks in that one sentence? How many bits did you lose from the timing/time zone of your comment? By the language of your comment?
    - sokoloff 7y ago
      I imagine that there's a lot of information in the specific cadence of typing, in addition to the final text. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_dynamics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_dynamics
      - gruez 7y ago
        As a low tech solution, you can always compose the contents in a separate window and paste it in when you're done. Hardened browsers (eg. Firefox with resistfingerprinting) can frustrate attempts by throttling key events (key events get coalesced into 1s/5s/10s intervals).
Despegar 7y ago
One benefit of only WebKit being allowed on iOS is that it gives Apple the market power to shape web standards in favor of privacy.
- vnorilo 7y ago
  Apple may be happy to differentiate on privacy but surely they don't care or might even prefer that android and others get worse in that regard.
  - Despegar 7y ago
    It doesn't really matter if Apple is for privacy in their heart of hearts or because they're ruthless capitalists if the end result is in favor of privacy. In fact it's better if there's a profit incentive. Alignment of interests is what's been Apple's superpower for a long time now.
    - vnorilo 7y ago
      Sure, but I'd guess their incentives align with being better than median, and thus not necessarily with improving the standards with their market power.
      - shermozle 7y ago
        Exactly this. Otherwise they'd push their things to standards processes or open them to non-Apple users. Like their login thing, which is genius but useless to non-Apple users.
        lucasverra 7y ago
        you can have an apple id and not have any apple device.
  - xoa 7y ago
    >but surely they don't care or might even prefer that android and others get worse in that regard There are more levels than just their own direct position though right? Apple's more data/ad-driven competitors directly gain revenue from having more information. In some cases if Apple is able to shape standards themselves in favor of more privacy, their business model enables them to profit in that environment while it starves others of oxygen. Competitors can't just necessarily take the same privacy stance without suffering harm (and conversely, Apple can't fight battles on pricing or data-driven features like AI as effectively). Businesses seeking to alter the environment itself to match their strengths isn't unheard of and can make a lot of sense.

ben_jones 7y ago

It's the web trying to take back share from native by integrating more hardware related APIs i.e. storage, authentication, etc. - driven by large corporations with disproportionate voices in these working groups. I doubt it's even this particular feature, just an ethos of: let's add as much as possible because it'll increase our relevance.

wlesieutre 7y ago
Agreed, and I assume the main use case is for websites to be able to offer a "dark UI" like maps apps do, so if you're using it for navigation at night it won't blind you. But here's a crazy idea for them: @media (prefers-color-scheme: dark) { color: white; background-color: black; } That way it doesn't leak any uncontrollable information, and it makes the UI look how I want it to! It can even happen automatically at night if I've set my phone to do that. Downside, if I drive through a tunnel during the day the UI stays bright. I'll live. If they really think they need to access my light sensor, they can ask. Maybe someone wants to make a light meter web app, I don't know. But I do know they have no business accessing sensor hardware without permission. It's like with the battery API, people had this idea that web developers could say "Oh your battery is low, we'll throttle back into low power mode to respect that." But instead, websites are happy to continue burning all the CPU, data, and battery life in the world, because by and large developers aren't paid to give a shit about your battery. They're paid to ship features and make whatever metrics go up. So the only thing it gets used for is identifying phones for advertiser targeting.

throwaway_bad 7y ago

> But history tells us that literally everything will be used for fingerprinting I don't think you realize how right you are. Fingerprinting is eventually going to be a lost cause. In 10 years or so, we will have the tech to fingerprint anyone just by their writing style (some companies even claim to be able to do this already today). What do you do then? Ban posting stuff online?

gruez 7y ago
>In 10 years or so, we will have the tech to fingerprint anyone just by their writing style (some companies even claim to be able to do that already today). ...given a large enough corpus of text. I doubt that you're able to pick up much from a dozen 1 sentence replies on reddit, for instance. You could even use some sort of neural network based sentence transformer to scramble the structure without significantly altering the meaning.
- throwaway_bad 7y ago
  I am not sure it has to be too large. It only takes 33 bits of information to identify 1 person out of 7 billion. How many bits did you lose just by talking about neural networks in that one sentence? How many bits did you lose from the timing/time zone of your comment? By the language of your comment?
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    I imagine that there's a lot of information in the specific cadence of typing, in addition to the final text. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_dynamics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_dynamics
    - gruez 7y ago
      As a low tech solution, you can always compose the contents in a separate window and paste it in when you're done. Hardened browsers (eg. Firefox with resistfingerprinting) can frustrate attempts by throttling key events (key events get coalesced into 1s/5s/10s intervals).

Despegar 7y ago

One benefit of only WebKit being allowed on iOS is that it gives Apple the market power to shape web standards in favor of privacy.

vnorilo 7y ago
Apple may be happy to differentiate on privacy but surely they don't care or might even prefer that android and others get worse in that regard.
- Despegar 7y ago
  It doesn't really matter if Apple is for privacy in their heart of hearts or because they're ruthless capitalists if the end result is in favor of privacy. In fact it's better if there's a profit incentive. Alignment of interests is what's been Apple's superpower for a long time now.
  - vnorilo 7y ago
    Sure, but I'd guess their incentives align with being better than median, and thus not necessarily with improving the standards with their market power.
    - shermozle 7y ago
      Exactly this. Otherwise they'd push their things to standards processes or open them to non-Apple users. Like their login thing, which is genius but useless to non-Apple users.
      - lucasverra 7y ago
        you can have an apple id and not have any apple device.
- xoa 7y ago
  >but surely they don't care or might even prefer that android and others get worse in that regard There are more levels than just their own direct position though right? Apple's more data/ad-driven competitors directly gain revenue from having more information. In some cases if Apple is able to shape standards themselves in favor of more privacy, their business model enables them to profit in that environment while it starves others of oxygen. Competitors can't just necessarily take the same privacy stance without suffering harm (and conversely, Apple can't fight battles on pricing or data-driven features like AI as effectively). Businesses seeking to alter the environment itself to match their strengths isn't unheard of and can make a lot of sense.