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Harold Bloom Has Died
- jchallis 7y agoI used to tutor math and physics near Bloom's office in Timothy Dwight. My main association with the man is that he would come on strong to every female English graduate student he could reach. When #MeToo first came to national consciousness about men in arts and letters who completely abused their position to take advantage of women, I thought of Harold. How could these giants of arts and letters abuse so many? Because no one spoke out. It does sound near the end of his life, he got some of the medicine he deserved: https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2017/12/16/students-organize-response-to-saloveys-e-mail-on-sexual-misconduct/ https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2017/12/16/students-organize-...
- trianglem 7y agoI feel like coming on strongly to women is something desirable now, a drastic deviation from how I used to think less than half a decade ago.
- dang 7y agoPlease don't do this here.
- jacques_chester 7y agoOr anywhere, really.
- _edo 7y agoI understand why you don't like this comment. I don't understand why this is worth your commenting on but you're silent on the airing of somebody's dirty laundry between their death and their funeral. What this signals to the Hacker News community is disturbing to the extent that I'm not sure I want to spend any more time here.
- dang 7y agoIt's off topic, unsubstantive, and inflammatory. It takes the thread in an extraneous flamebait direction, just what the site guidelines ask people not to. This seems obvious. Am I missing something? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html The question of airing dirty laundry immediately on someone's death is more complex. I agree that accusations against Bloom should not dominate discussion over the significant things he did. But they're not off topic, and the social injunction against speaking ill of the dead isn't shared by the whole community. We can argue reasonably about how to handle all of that. From my perspective, there aren't guidelines violations in those comments, but the various other things moderators do to encourage substantive discussion are applicable. But I see no such nuance in "I feel like coming on strongly to women is something desirable now". That doesn't mean the GP was posting in bad faith, but it's the sort of post we have to moderate if we don't want the thread to burst into flames.
- jlilbgusfhd 7y agoYeah that's not cool. What's also not cool is to judge people from another time by the standards of today.
- dlivingston 7y agoRegarding Bloom's accuser, > In 2004, Wolf wrote an article for New York magazine accusing literary scholar Harold Bloom of a "sexual encroachment" more than two decades earlier by touching her thigh. She said that what she alleged Bloom did was not harassment, either legally or emotionally, and she did not think herself a "victim", but that she had harbored this secret for 21 years. [0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Wolf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Wolf
- mellosouls 7y agoComment removed.
- SomeOldThrow 7y agoWhat does this have to do with the accusation? It has nothing to do with his being significant except through the window of his abusing his power.
- mellosouls 7y agoI think you have misread my comment.
- elliekelly 7y agoPerhaps I've misread and/or misunderstood your comment as well. It seems you're suggesting that she's an unreliable witness and her accusations shouldn't be given much (or any) weight because her academic and professional work is of low quality.
- SomeOldThrow 7y agoI don’t believe I have. What do claims of plagiarism have to do with claims of sexual harassment? Your post seems to defame the alleged victim.
- mellosouls 7y ago
- jerf 7y agoYou shouldn't speak ill of the dead like this. It is uncouth and crass for all sorts of reasons. It doesn't mean you need to forget or ignore it, it just means... today is not the day. More days will come.
- master-litty 7y agoI understand your sentiment but to clarify, that is indeed ignoring the bad behavior. It's placation, even if temporary. And it's polite. There's nothing wrong with keeping these thoughts to yourself. With rare exception, it certainly doesn't harm anyone. But when a person leaves this world, they take all their good and all their bad with them -- I think it's acceptable to acknowledge what we are left with. To some, the striking acknowledgement is that we are one harasser less. The conversation will naturally steer towards the good if it outweighs the bad. Perhaps I'm being too insensitive; Those are my thoughts for the moment, anyway.
- 0_gravitas 7y agoNot OP but I've never liked the notion of "too soon" as a reason for not doing/saying things, it feels very arbitrary. And I don't know much about the person of subject but I will speak ill of anyone living or dead if they are someone worth speaking ill of.
- jerf 7y agoIt is not for the deceased; it is for the family of the deceased and others left behind. They are grieving and don't need to also have to deal with rumors adding to their pain. They didn't do it. It is also a simple application of the Golden Rule; you would not care for everyone around you to take your death as an opportunity to slag you, neither should you do it to you other fellow humans, all condemned to die one day as well. There will be more days. It doesn't have to be done today.
- Barrin92 7y ago>It is also a simple application of the Golden Rule; you would not care for everyone around you to take your death as an opportunity to slag you if I ever turn into someone who gets a reputation for molesting young college students drag me all you want, hell rent a billboard for all I care and chuck my remains into the trashcan. If I ever figured out that one of my family members engaged in behaviour like this I would not mind it one single bit if their accusers spoke about it the day they died, the only thing I'd be sad about is that I didn't know sooner.
- carterschonwald 7y agoWhen I was an undergrad there 2006-2010, his perviness was well known across campus. Female dorm residents had lots of stories
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- vixen99 7y agoAnd in effect, now there's one more with further reach.
- WheelsAtLarge 7y ago>>How could these giants of arts and letters abuse so many? We tend to give people that are accomplished in a field an aura of saintliness that they don't deserve. The reality is that once people attain a bit of power many find it hard not to abuse it. And also, people around them tend to ignore the abuses. The only way to fix it is to call the abusers out on their behavior but it's hard for most people to do it because of all the trouble it brings even if it's 100% true. It's easier to give it a pass and hope someone else will do something about it.
- whiddershins 7y agoYou can do as you like, but for me it is a decent heuristic to not speak ill of the dead. I, personally, really don’t enjoy reading about people using someone’s death or funeral as a platform for maligning their life, regardless of the accuracy and poignancy of the claims. Would you bring up this discussion in front of a grieving family member? Do you think it impossible someone already in pain might read what is said on the internet? There’s a concept I like that even the bitterest of enemies allow the dead to be buried in peace.
- keiferski 7y agoWriting a short call-out comment on an anonymous internet forum is easy. Thinking deeply about the appropriate time and place to bring up and challenge a person’s perceived unethical past deeds is difficult.
- oska 7y ago> it is a decent heuristic to not speak ill of the dead I take somewhat the opposite view: once someone is dead they can no longer be hurt by anything bad said about them. Defamation law also follows the same principle. Not that I want to speak ill of Harold Bloom. I only knew him through reading The Western Canon, which I found a very rewarding read, and for his disdain for the Harry Potter mania, where I felt the same way.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- ncmncm 7y agoThe law favors the idea that the dead are beyond harm.
- angry_octet 7y agoYour feelings are really of no consequence compared to those who were victims. If you have a personal interaction to weigh in the positive side of the scales, speak now.
- emmelaich 7y ago> Because no one spoke out. Did you?
- prvc 7y agoWe live in an era where great art has so little power that it requires defending, and that doing so is considered to be controversial. Our time is a spiritual dark age.
- webkike 7y agoDemetrius: "Villain, what hast thou done?" Aaron: “That which thou canst not undo." Chiron: "Thou hast undone our mother." Aaron: "Villain, I have done thy mother." - Titus Andronicus, Act 4, Scene 2
- virgil_disgr4ce 7y agoWhat on earth are you talking about?
- ellius 7y agoHe's referring to the current academic climate, especially in fields like literature, much of which is derogatory towards the past and "great works."
- teflodollar 7y agoIt's too bad to read these reports about his lecherousness, because he was without question a giant in the US world of letters.
- SomeOldThrow 7y agoHow are these contradictory? He is obviously both.
- teflodollar 7y agoI don't think they're in any way contradictory. I think he was a genuinely great critic, and that can't be taken away from him. But that doesn't mean I can't be disappointed to learn he made female graduate students uncomfortable. Similarly I fully support Handke winning the Nobel this year, but it doesn't mean I can't deplore his support of Milosevic.
- SomeOldThrow 7y agoI think this sense of cancel culture is overhyped. Harold Bloom’s importance will not be lessened due to his abuse (except perhaps of topical relevance). There is simply a dual importance like we both recognize.
- SomeOldThrow 7y agoAlso stop supporting the Nobel Prizes. They’re bullshit.
- coldtea 7y agoWell, hitting on women (for men), hitting on men (for women), drinking, taking drugs, being tightwad, being lavish, being easily angered, and tons of other things, never stopped anybody from being a giant of letters or the arts, a great politician, a good scientist, a great athlete, a great actor, a great humanitarian, a great businessperson or any other thing... In fact it's probably more common in the great men and women, than in the puny average moralists who never achieved greatness, but also never dared go into any excess as people, and had far far less chances to indulge in such things...
- jeffdavis 7y agoThe article confuses me. Bloom thought both that Shakespeare invented humanity, but also that literature was primarily about the aesthetic pleasure for the reader? I am not an expert in literature or criticism, but it seems like there's something missing from the article to explain that gap. (I'm sorry to hear of his passing, of course, and I don't mean this as disrespectful in any way.)
- blacksqr 7y agoBloom was of the opinion that Shakespeare invented the modern (as distinct from ancient or medieval) conception of conscious self-awareness and introspection as a new idea of what it means to be human and experience life.
- walshemj 7y agoThat's interesting I will have to read more, when I did classical studies in the 6th form. Our teacher ( head of the sixth form) commented that some of the later Greek plays could be read in that sort of way, The Bacchae for example.
- aamar 7y agoRight, agreed that that’s a conflict; the latter point—primarily about aesthetic pleasure—isn’t quite right or is at least misleading. In my reading, Bloom values deep wisdom, formal excellence, and innovation—and these things are pleasurable, but also refract our deepest understandings of ourselves and others. He values these over more ‘politicized’ or culturally specific readings. It’s a little—just a little—like the “art for art’s sake” movements, where the slogan says less about what art is for and mostly insists that art isn’t about its conventionally understood purposes (to morally educate, to record, etc.) and also not about the next dozen theories that might occur to you.
- vonnik 7y agoStrange side note: A friend of mine knew Bloom, and one of Bloom's favorite books was Little, Big, by John Crowley. Bloom said he saw parallels between the 2016 election and the second coming of Barbarossa.
- zebraflask 7y agoIt is a great book for its genre - modern fantasy without the cheesiness that I think Bloom didn't like about popular fantasy series. I didn't know he hated Harry Potter. Raises my opinion of him.
- bigpumpkin 7y agoHere's him reading a short section from Hart Crane's The Bridge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRY5SelxqPU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRY5SelxqPU " O Thou steeled Cognizance whose leap commits The agile precincts of the lark’s return; Within whose lariat sweep encinctured sing In single chrysalis the many twain,— Of stars Thou art the stitch and stallion glow And like an organ, Thou, with sound of doom— Sight, sound and flesh Thou leadest from time’s realm As love strikes clear direction for the helm. "
- CamperBob2 7y agoSounds like he must have made Douglas Adams's acquaintance at some point.
- Jun8 7y agoThe Paris Review interview with him: https://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/2225/harold-bloom-the-art-of-criticism-no-1-harold-bloom https://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/2225/harold-bloom-...
- spats1990 7y agounpaywalled full version: https://web.archive.org/web/20170602064548/https://theparisreview.org/interviews/2225/harold-bloom-the-art-of-criticism-no-1-harold-bloom https://web.archive.org/web/20170602064548/https://theparisr... (psst...I encourage people to subscribe for access, but most older Paris Review interviews are accessible through archive.org.)
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- henry_bone 7y agoIf I were to read one of his books as a guide the best bits of the canon to read, which book should I read? The main options appear to be 'Genius', 'The Western Canon' and 'How to read and why'. I'd like to read more, and a good guide to Western literature might be helpful.
- pattisapu 7y agoI suggest: Where Shall Wisdom Be Found? In my opinion here is Bloom at his boldest and finest. He is looking for wisdom, not just in literature, but also in philosophy, religion.... While in some ways breezy, a bit of an airplane read, and sometimes provocative of little more than a chuckle, or a facepalm, it is, taken as a whole, a liberal and generous conception of the humanities and human life. That's Bloom for you.
- henry_bone 7y agoThanks for that. I hadn't heard of Harold Bloom before today, but what I've read about his scholarship and writing today, leads me to think that I could use one or more of his books as a guide to reading books from the western canon. I'll check out 'Where Shall Wisdom Be Found?'
- pixelmonkey 7y agoI wrote an essay about Bloom’s conception of “the Canon” back in 2003. Was probably my favorite essay I published publicly from that period. I still go back to it from time to time, thinking especially about Bloom’s concept of “The Anxiety of Influence”. The thread I weave starts from a piece by Walker Percy, entitled “The Loss of the Creature”. That one is somewhat esoteric and underrated, but beautifully describes the conundrum of art education by “experts”, and the contrast between truly experiencing art and merely trying to “get it”. Anyway, I archived my essay, “Questioning the Canon”, on my personal site here: https://amontalenti.com/2012/12/29/questioning-the-canon https://amontalenti.com/2012/12/29/questioning-the-canon
- kieckerjan 7y agoCompletely tangental, but nevertheless. Your quote of Percy brought back a memory. Almost thirty years ago I was in Avignon. It was scorchingly hot, with temperatures reaching into the 40 degrees Celsius range. My girlfriend and I sought refuge against the heat in the neighbouring village of Villeneuve-Les-Avignon. There was going to be a festival of old music there in the remains of an old fortress that evening. We could hear someone practicing a piece on the cello. No-one cared to guard the entrace in this impossible heat. We trespassed into the ruins and located an old tower where the music was coming from. There was actually no door and we snuck up the staircase until we were right next to a room where someone was playing a beautiful piece, flawlessly. We sat there on the stairs for fifteen minutes, transfixed by the music. We knew enough about music to know that it was late baroque, definitely not Bach, possibly French, but we never dared to expose ourselves and ask. It was a transcendental experience.
- davidwihl 7y agosounds like a scene from “Tous les matins du monde”
- briga 7y agoThere are few people who've read so widely and deeply as Harold Bloom. For all his idiosyncrasies as a critic and for whatever personal flaws he might have had, he inspired a generation of readers to read more and explore the classics of Western civilization. His books are valuable guides to the vast world of Western literature, and if they help preserve even a fraction of that heritage for the next generation of readers I think Bloom has achieved his purpose. We've lost a great mind today. RIP
- saberience 7y agoHe only read deeply or widely when it came to the "classics" of Western Literature. He was incredibly biased towards Western literature and especially English language literature. He had an irrational hatred for anything that became "popular" such as Harry Potter, Tolkien, or Stephen King. He couldn't handle novels which (in his opinion) weren't difficult or erudite that the "average" person could understand easily.
- firasd 7y agoMy favorite commentary from him is on 'Frankenstein' which is not a difficult read. In fact he wrote about several 20th century books like 'Catch-22' and 'Death of a Salesman'. But yes I don't think he analyzed John Grisham etc if that's what you mean.
- dbspin 7y agoThats completely fine, since there are a endless number of critics who fill in the gaps in Bloom's preferences. Few take seriously his canonical approach to literature anymore, but that doesn't make his critical approach to given works, or the appreciation he communicates for literature any less valuable.
- keiferski 7y agoOne of the most erudite academics of the past century. It is truly a loss for those who have a respect and admiration for the great minds of the past. If you’re a Bloom fan, or are interested in history and literature generally, I recommend looking into Lewis Lapham and his magazine, Lapham’s Quarterly. Lapham is also an exceptionally well-read, classically-trained writer and the magazine operates in the same areas as Bloom’s work. https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/ https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/
- skeptical900067 7y agoI'm familiar with classical training for music (conservatories) and painting (ateliers, master/apprentice systems). I've never heard of classical training for writing. What does it entail? Where can I learn more about the methods?
- keiferski 7y agoWell perhaps I was using “classically-trained” incorrectly. I meant that he is deeply educated in the classics of western and world literature. If you’re looking for information about the classics, I recommend any of Bloom’s books.
- skeptical900067 7y agoAh thanks. You had me excited for a moment: classical methods for drawing were tedious, but rewarded my patience by improving my ability exponentially faster than other forms of practice. I had hoped for something similar WRT writing.
- saberience 7y agoSure it's sad when anyone dies but I never agreed with Bloom's view of literature. He was unbearably snobby about his tastes and thought anything popular was shit and the coming of the end of literature. See his thoughts on Harry Potter, Stephen King, Tolkien, etc. Basically he was living in the past. He was also incredibly biased towards English language books and had barely read any Eastern or African literature. Not to mention his general bias against anything written in the last 20 years, I seem to remember him saying that there were only three authors in the last 20 years who wrote a good book...
- hardlianotion 7y agoNothing to do with Bloom filters then.