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On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

99 points by scardine 7y ago

CM30 7y ago
Now it seems StackOverflow knows how YouTube feels whenever they post a YouTube Rewind video. That one got absolutely downvoted to all hell, and for similar reasons to this post. Hopefully they'll look at this, see the amount of dislikes it's getting and change course again/revert this mess to the way it was before.
- notadoc 7y ago
  Wrongthink
- callinyouin 7y ago
  This "mess" is an attempt to encourage/enforce basic decency in their community. Why do you think they should "change course"?
  - wetpaws 7y ago
    Because using good causes for justifying bad actions is bad.
  - zzzcpan 7y ago
    "Decency" is not a universal thing, so it's not acceptable to enforce your ways of being decent onto everyone else.
  - throwaway66920 7y ago
    It’s like making it illegal to not greet your neighbor each morning. The underlying premise is to make things nicer, but it’s also just stupid. A good rule would be “try to be considerate of pronoun preferences”. The wants of the LGBTQA community are, in the eyes of the majority, probably not this. I like to be polite and respectful. I’ll be honest though, I would guess that less than 0.1% of the English speaking population identifies as “Xir” and that a non trivial portion of those that do are comfortable with the understanding that random strangers are more comfortable using gender neutral language. I would further posit that the portion of those that are not ok with people having points of view favoring even gender neutral language and instead demand the usage of the term Xir have adopted it as a counter cultural stance to combat heteronormativity- which honestly is fine, but it’s also a move made knowingly to make some people uncomfortable which by any metric must be ruder than someone who is just trying to avoid controversy at all by using gender neutral pronouns to begin with. I’m a left leaning adult, and I think it’s pretty bullshit. Especially on the Internet where women have been assumed to be men by default for decades. If I misgender someone, and they ask me to use any specific pronoun in the future, I probably will. If the responder instead gets angry and implies that I am rude because I made a common assumption, and instead asserts that I’m going to tell them to buzz off. Rudeness is clearly a subjective concept based around intent. And it’s frankly a waste of people’s time. Imagine if every post had pronouns at the end, and if every man then demanded a correction for a use of they instead of “he”. That would be a waste of time and disrespectful to the ability of everyone else to be an adult.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    Are you suggesting that basic decency wasn't a thing on SO/SE before? I can count the number of rude interactions I've witnessed on two hands, and all of them were either people being angry about their shitty questions being flagged or fundamental disagreements over how software development should be done. This wasn't a significant problem for the community as a whole. Certainly, any individual might be hurt when it happens, but let's keep some perspective. I've also not heard anything about mods not being able to deal with instances when it happened. There were people trying to be within an inch of the rules (on other issues, I've never seen gender being an issue at all), and they were all easily dealt with because SO never claimed to apply any rules by the letter only. Granted, I'm speaking for the technical sites, law.se or pets.se may be terrible places, but I doubt it. Where did you witness that lack of basic decency?
fwip 7y ago
Wow, what a trainwreck in the comments. It's a shame that this is what happens whenever you remind developers to use common decency.
- dlivingston 7y ago
  The majority of comments have no qualms with respecting one's mode of self-identification, but rather, with the method by which S.E. has chosen to approach it. In other words, the commenters have an issue with the poor execution of a noble idea.
  - Spivak 7y ago
    Genuinely, what's the poor execution? They seem to have basically codified "use someone's stated pronouns" with an awareness of the common ways people try to get around it. It seems like anyone who respects how other people identify will have hard time running up against this policy.
    - gwbas1c 7y ago
      > It seems like anyone who respects how other people identify will have hard time running up against this policy. Because the policy isn't about respecting gender identity; it's about having a political battle where there are no winners.
    - kelnos 7y ago
      The policy assumes that everyone will act in good faith, or will be explicit about acting in bad faith. That's a terrible assumption. For example: if I put an unfamiliar pronoun in my profile, and someone sees it, are they obligated to refer to me that way? What if I'm just trolling? Should people be required to google my preferred pronoun and then make a value judgment on whether I'm acting in good or bad faith? If they err on the side of assuming good faith, and I'm really just trolling, then we get an answer for all to see that includes someone falling for a troll, which reduces the value of that answer. It also normalizes trollish behavior, which is bad. If they believe I'm acting in bad faith, and they're wrong, they could get banned from the site, which is an overreaction to what I'd expect will be a common, innocent mistake. And that's just one example; there are plenty more in the comments.
RankingMember 7y ago
I think the blowback is really just about cognitive load. There's only so much you can expend on social mores before the actual subject you're discussing gets eclipsed. Everyone deserves equal respect, but I understand that when I'm not in the majority in a situation that my perspectives/language may be alien to some of those in the majority- I don't hold it against them unless there is explicit hostility. I find myself starting to subconsciously just use "you" or "them" and avoid any specific gendering altogether- in this day and age it just seems the least tiring route to go.
- urthen 7y ago
  Absolutely "They". They they they they they. English already has a perfectly good gender-neutral pronoun. I explicitly list my pronouns as "He/his or they/their" because I think the neopronouns are ultimately a way to gatekeep inclusivity, which is ironic.
  - notadoc 7y ago
    What will happen with grammatically gendered languages, like Spanish?
    - gwbas1c 7y ago
      Then you need to go look up how it's handled in Spanish. BTW, English is gendered, just not as much as Spanish, French, and Italian are.
      - davvolun 7y ago
        What are you talking about? English is verifiably not as gendered as Spanish, at the very least. All nouns in Spanish require a gender article (el/la or los/las). In English, you do not have to figure out whether "día" should be prefixed with el or la -- and in the case of "día" despite it ending in "a" which usually implies feminine and la, it's actually masculine and is properly "el día." That doesn't even bring into it examples like ellos/ellas ("they" or "them" in English) referring to a male group or a female group where the standard rule is to use ellos if referring to an unknown group or even a group of 100 women and one man, the only application of ellas should be when you can verify every single member of the group is female.
hackerbabz 7y ago
I don’t know if I’ve ever written a single pronoun on stack overflow. I write a question referring only to myself “How do I...” Or I write an answer with “you”, or I reference another poster by name. I don’t quite understand why the admins thought this was a good use of energy, but I am also all for inclusivity. If I find the need for a pronoun, I will use “they” and not be bothered by it.
- luckylion 7y ago
  > If I find the need for a pronoun, I will use “they” and not be bothered by it. That will possibly get you a warning and, if you keep doing it, a ban. If you're using any pronouns and the person has written their preferred pronouns on their profile, you must use those. I believe that the whole issue is virtue signalling. It has none to very little actual practical value but is highly contentious (especially with draconian punishments for minor infractions), it's great as a signal and useless as a policy.
  - hackerbabz 7y ago
    It absolutely says the opposite of that. > Q15: Is it expected that people go to "About me" to check whether someone has pronouns there when interacting in Q&A? No. That would be good practice, but it is not required.
    - luckylion 7y ago
      Oh, thanks for pointing that out. I had read the whole shebang yesterday and that Q&A has been added since then. Before the CoC was made public, the (unofficially) communicated approach was that checking the profile was to be mandatory.
armored99 7y ago
I'm going to get a stackoverflow account just so i can downvote this.
tharne 7y ago
What's particularly obnoxious about this type of political thought is the idea that "If you don't support forced or compelled speech in favor of X then you must be against X". The problems with this type of thinking are too obvious to list off.
- generalpass 7y ago
  After visiting a friend of mine who was attending UC Berkeley in the 90s, I made the comment that "if you don't have an open mind, then get the fuck out of here." This current movement feels very much like an extension of what I felt there.
folkhack 7y ago
If it's that much of a concern just put a validation filter on the comment submission box that has you "gender neutralize" your submission/answers if they find "he/her" type language in there. I mean - it's a clear-enough defined problem to solve with software and I've found that if you mess up a gender pronoun on accident people sometimes get deeply offended. I've gone 100% to the "they/them/you/their user name/etc." route because I just don't want to step on toes. I miss the days when everyone was just a silly textual username that didn't have a gender, age, religion, race, etc. I've gone years communicating with people without actually knowing their gender.
- tstrimple 7y ago
  For what it's worth, I've only ever encountered people getting "deeply offended" over intentional misrepresentation of gender. I hear far more people complaining about people being upset about being misgendered than people actually upset about being misgendered. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying that in my experience the counter-"outrage culture" in many cases blows things way more out of proportion than the "outrage culture" they rail against.
  - mattnewport 7y ago
    The introduction of this policy rather contradicts your claim.
    - tstrimple 7y ago
      In what way? I think it only supports my claims. How much visible outrage was there from people being misgendered? Yet there is a thread full of people complaining about having to adjust their language. It seems to me there is way more people upset about changing language than were upset about being misgendered. Unless there is some meta thread you can point me to which is full of people complaining about being misgendered?
      - mattnewport 7y ago
atonse 7y ago
Obligatory need to say: I strongly believe in a live-and-let-live idea so yes, everyone should be treated fairly and with decency. Everyone. The odd thing here is that in most cases, rules regarding speech revolve around what _not_ to say. (cursing, hate speech, attacks, etc). But in this case, these kinds of things feel like they belong more as a list of good manners. But in this case, you aren't being told "this is what we feel are good manners", but you're forced to say certain things, but those rules can be all over the place (physically, on different pages, and complexity-wise). So now are people supposed to check each profile before responding? What's wrong with just saying s/he, or OP, or the various internet-isms? Do they cause so much harm? They are totally harmless and neutral, and not offensive. Or are they offensive now? Again, it's one thing if it was a guideline (like when we talk about manners), but this seems like users are being forced to say certain words (compelled speech), knowing which words to say requires them to do additional research, and that research usually has nothing to do with the content of the actual post.
- mcphage 7y ago
  > So now are people supposed to check each profile before responding? That question is specifically asked—and answered—in the linked article; the answer is no.
gwbas1c 7y ago
(Joke) Sometimes I wonder if we should all adopt thick accents so we can just use 'e (instead of he or she); hm (instead of her or him); and ha (instead of his or hers). (Please laugh)
gwbas1c 7y ago
I wonder how a non-native English speaker would handle this, especially if they came from a country that is still hostile to LGBTQ issues?
ksec 7y ago
[Off Topic] I was very late to the whole StackOverflow Saga, and didn't spend much time reading through all of its causes and comments at the time it happen. And when I did, the thing that struck me most and has been in many other places including HN ( Sometimes ) is the use of English presumes others are Americans, especially in technology sector. This completely ignores people all over the world using English to communicates. And this is not about cultures or values, but what is a pronoun? How do we use the correct "pronoun", how do we tell which one to use. I suspect many native English user will have cognitive load and may decide it is not worth the hassle and walk away. What about those that uses English as 2nd or even 3rd language. I remember a story my British Colleague once told me, our German Colleague is so good with his English, so precise that sometimes it is borderline rude if you didn't know he was German. i.e The tone is wrong, but Germany tends to be very explicit about things in their culture, not the same could be said about the Brits. It is important to understand the meaning, and messages that is trying to come across behind its written or verbal form, and often not literally what it meant. If we have to nitpick every single word, phase or grammatical mistake as well as whatever political issues it is with the usage of the word, we will very quickly end up with people not communicating to you ( or in this case Stack overflow ) in the fear of constantly being bashed and disrupted.
- kelnos 7y ago
  I don't think your post is off-topic at all. We have very few signals in this medium that can tell us if someone is acting in bad faith, or just simply made a mistake. The scary thing about this code of conduct change is that it's mandating required behavior, which is a little unusual: most items in a code of conduct remind people of things they should not do, but speak in general only about behaviors that promote inclusiveness. This new bit is very specific, and lays out rules for how to use language. English itself is not a particularly consistent language even within English-majority countries like the US or UK; differences are huge between countries, especially when English isn't the primary language, due both to cultural convention and personal skill with the language. I do think we should refer to people using their preferred pronouns when known. But we need to make allowances for mistakes; sadly I expect that the norm will be an assumption of bad faith when simple mistakes are likely to be the most common case.
kelnos 7y ago
I get that there is a much larger context to this (moderator losing her moderating bits over this issue, many other moderators stepping down in protest) that's almost certainly inflaming the discussion and driving a lot of the downvotes, but overall I don't really see much that's objectionable about this. Essentially it boils down to: if you know someone's preferred pronouns, use them. If not, use gender-neutral pronouns. They even specifically point out that there's no requirement to actively seek out someone's pronouns if you don't know; just use something gender-neutral and move on. I do see some issues, like: what if someone makes up a pronoun in bad faith, with the intention to troll people? There's some discussion around that in the comments, but the current policy seems to be "go along with it, but raise the issue with mods and they'll look into it", which is... not really a satisfying answer at all? And what if someone puts down a pronoun in good faith that you're simply unfamiliar with? Is it really reasonable to expect that answering a SE question will sometimes require googling someone's stated pronoun, followed by a value judgment to guess if they're trolling or not? I come to SE (well, mostly SO) for answers to technical questions. For the vast majority of them, gender has nothing to do with the question or answer. Someone in the comments links to a question where someone put their pronoun preference at the bottom of their question, followed by an edit war removing and re-adding it[0], plus there's a meta discussion of the question[1]. Pronoun discussion in a technical question that doesn't even have to do with people is just noise, plain and simple. But it seems the consensus among community managers is edging toward leaving the pronoun notification in there, even though their FAQ explicitly states that the right place for a pronoun preference is in the About Me section of the user profile. This is getting to be a bit much. [0] https://stackoverflow.com/posts/58336846/revisions https://stackoverflow.com/posts/58336846/revisions [1] https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/390301/would-a-note-about-preferred-pronouns-qualify-the-same-way-as-a-thank-you https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/390301/would-a-note...
progfix 7y ago
I use whatever pronoun I see fit and if I offend someone by using the wrong pronoun I will apology to that person and move on.
- growse 7y ago
  "I'll wave my fists wherever I see fit and if I end up hurting someone by punching them I'll apologise to that person and move on." Maybe stop waving your fists about?
  - thaneross 7y ago
    As a marginalized person who has both been physically assaulted for my identity as well as been subjected to hate & discrimination, let me be clear that equivocation between words and violence is not helpful.
    - growse 7y ago
      I didn't mean for it to sound like an equivocation, and reading it back I see how it could be seen that way. I should have worded it better. What I'm trying to say is that we should all be aware that our actions occur in a context, and thinking about the possible implications of those actions is a good thing. This is true whether that action is a physical action, or speech, or even inaction etc. The attitude of the OP appeared to be more "I am free to do x and I'm not going to give any thought to what the possible consequences might be before I do x", which isn't particularly fun for everyone else.
- happytoexplain 7y ago
  "Whatever I see fit" typically is a declaration of defiance and rejection, rather than a simple "I'll try my best". If that characterization is accurate, it implies that your theoretical apology would be insincere. If so, why offer it?
  - progfix 7y ago
    With "I see fit" I meant to use one that I assume is correct in the spirit of "I'll try my best". English is my second language and I should have worded my comment differently.
ladysman217 7y ago
ming the discussion and driving a lot of the downvotes, but overall I don't really see much that's objectionable about this. Essentially it boils down to: if you know someone's preferred pronouns, use them. If not, use gender-neutral pronouns. They even specifically point out that there's no requirement to actively seek
- ladysman217 7y ago
  Nothing better to do
- fmajid 7y ago
  https://dilbert.com/strip/1994-05-28 https://dilbert.com/strip/1994-05-28
ykevinator 7y ago
This story cannot die fast enough. The simplest solution is to pay moderators.
automathematics 7y ago
Just try and recognize you're not the only person on the internet. Do right by them, and if you fuck up, apologize and move on. If you're getting angry that you (might) upset someone else you need to take a hard look in the mirror. Not only because you're immediately acting like their feelings don't matter because you didn't MEAN to offend them. But also, why don't you have a hobby? If you do, apologize to the person you upset and move on and reclaim that time to do something productive.
Excel_Wizard 7y ago
It's really strange to me that a trans (or whatever) person would be offended at being called a standard pronoun. Seems like an easy mistake to make. I feel like the idea of choosing your own pronoun is fine and happy within an insular LGBTQ+ forum or venue. When it tries to take over the language everyone else uses, it's gonna do more harm than good. People that push it just seem to be selfish to me.
- hypnagogicjerk 7y ago
  Some people do deliberately (misgender) to antagonize a person. Particularly people who feel their culture is being redefined without them. By the way, EVERY trans person I know has been EXCEEDINGLY kind and understanding when I've made a mistake with their gender. Now, if I don't know it already, I ask what they prefer to be called the same way I would ask how to properly pronounce someone's name. "Pardon me, what are your pronouns?" If they've stated what their pronouns are then use them with the same respect you would muster to call someone by their proper name and pronunciation and spelling. The value here is no different, just more broadly applied then you're perhaps used to. If you deliberately misgender someone (show me a nerd hasn't had this or some similar slur used against them) then you're just a jerk and should be reprimanded. As an aside, to all the people complaining about non-English speakers doing enough work already participating in our idiom: 1) proper use of pronouns is essential to speaking English with or without neopronouns. 2) Many languages and cultures require VERY refined and strict understanding of a persons A) Age, B) Marital status, C) Gender and especially D) Social status before even beginning to address them.
  - gwbas1c 7y ago
    > Some people do deliberately (misgender) to antagonize a person. There's a difference between childish behavior in real life, versus an internet forum where someone's name and profile picture don't really say much.
  - tzs 7y ago
    If their preferred pronoun is non-gendered, how can using singular "they" misgender them?
axaxs 7y ago
I don't care how downvoted I get, I'll never call someone a made up pronoun. There is no word as xir as xe or latinx and i'm not participating in what I'd consider alarming participation of a mental illness. If you want me to call you he, or she, or as pointed just they, I don't think that's asking much. And I'll probably make a mistake, just mention it and move on. But the second you force this crap onto me, I'm out, which I'm sure pleases both sides.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- happytoexplain 7y ago
  >mental illness Do you actually believe this, or are you using it as an insult? >I don't care how downvoted I get This hurts your comment so badly, especially as a leading statement.
  - axaxs 7y ago
    >Do you actually believe this, or are you using it as an insult? I believe this, and mean it more as a matter of fact in a literal sense, and not as an insult. >This hurts your comment so badly, especially as a leading statement. To each their own. I know my audience. I lean conservative on a heavily west coast populated forum. I'm usually pretty easy going, but did draw a line in the sand on this. If every SE community trends this way, I'll pursue other interests.
Kye 7y ago
This one has me torn. Neopronouns are hard. I spend a lot of time in and around communities where these are used, and people who use them tend to be accepting of people using they/them. It's a compromise for the reality that most people aren't going to remember something they rarely use even if they want to. I rarely see people who use these pronouns, so I forget usage between encounters. Even most of the people screaming bloody murder in here say they're okay with they/them. I'm not sure who SE consulted on Q9, but xey are not representative of any neopronoun user I've met. They recognize it's a lot of extra mental load beyond the much more common they/they/their and make a small accommodation for people who struggle with it. I don't see any other issues on a skim, but that seems to be what's setting people off anyway so maybe that is it.
hirundo 7y ago
"Q9: Do I have to use pronouns I’m unfamiliar or uncomfortable with (e.g., neopronouns like xe, zir, ne... )? Yes, if those are stated by the individual." Therefore if someone says their pronouns are all Apache Attack Helicopter (and someone will), and you are aware of it, you are obligated to say things like "I think Apache Attack Helicopter made a good point". If I'm familiar with it, yet choose to say "I think they made a good point", I would have violated the code of conduct. That leads me to assume that I am unwelcome on this site and to look down the FAQ for the answer to the question, how do I delete my account? P.S. It's not in this FAQ, but https://stackoverflow.com/help/deleting-account https://stackoverflow.com/help/deleting-account.
- Kye 7y ago
  >> "Therefore if someone says their pronouns are all Apache Attack Helicopter (and someone will), and you are aware of it, you are obligated to say things like "I think Apache Attack Helicopter made a good point". If I'm familiar with it, yet choose to say "I think they made a good point", I would have violated the code of conduct." This would be obvious trolling. No one sincerely identifies as an Apache Attack Helicopter. No one doing this is making a worthwhile contribution, so there would be nothing worth engaging with. Report and move on.
  - atonse 7y ago
    Here’s a better example that’s not as obvious: if I am not aware that ze was an accepted pronoun and someone told me to use it, how do I know its real and not them jokingly using “the” with a French accent? Should I report it as someone fooling around?
    - Kye 7y ago
      Is the post otherwise good? If so, Google/quack/whatever for ze pronoun and see what comes up. Search engines are better at surfacing explanations for them these days. In practice, you won't encounter them often, and it should be obvious if they're a troll. Those should be reported and otherwise ignored. You can worry yourself sick with these hypotheticals. You are more dynamic than you give yourself credit for.
amanzi 7y ago
I think the first 8 points are all totally acceptable and makes sense. But it goes downhill from there... I'm totally not comfortable calling someone by a strange-looking "neopronoun" that I'm unfamiliar with - I would rather avoid interacting with them than use those words.
tzs 7y ago
I could get behind a real fix to English pronouns that takes gender completely out of it and fixes the problem of ambiguity when you have more than one pronoun in a sentence. My proposal would be: 1. "he" becomes gender neutral, and always refers to the first person in the sentence. 2. "she" becomes gender neutral, and always refers to the second person in the sentence. You can think if it as standing for "second he". 3. "tehe" is a gender neutral pronoun that always refers to the third person in the sentence. Think of it is standing for "tertiary he". 4. "quhe", "pehe", "hehe" are the 4th, 5th, and 6th persons ("quad he", "penta he" and "hex he"). If your sentence has more than six persons, rewrite the damn thing. For example, in the sentence "Alice, Bob, and Carol took his car, she drove, and tehe paid for the gas", they took Alice's car, Bob drove, and Carol paid for the gas. If they took Bob's car, Carol drove, and Alice paid, that would be "Alice, Bob, and Carol took her car, tehe drove, and he paid for the gas".
- frittig 7y ago
  that's actually really interesting, I never thought of that. do you know if any languages have something like that?
dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago
This comment made me think: > Is using someone's personal pronoun really "showing respect" if you get banned otherwise?
frittig 7y ago
One issue that a lot of trans supporters don't realize is that similarly to how trans people could be offended when they are referred to by a gender not of their choice, so to could some speakers be offended if they are forced to refer to a person as a gender not of their (the speaker) choice. This may be easier to understand by using a comparison. When I talk about the Muslim prophet I say Muhammad. However, many Muslims would say Muhammad pbuh (peace be upon him). This isn't that problematic, but let's say they the term was Muhammad ttp (the true prophet). Now I as a non Muslim believer would never use ttp because that would be insulting for whoever I believe in. If SE required that whenever I mention Muhammad that I append ttp, I would refuse as it would be extremely offensive to me. Similarly by referring to a person with XX chromosomes as she, is offensive to people who believe that genders cannot change. A reasonable compromise would be to let whoever is righting chose what they want, or even allow gender neutral pronouns. But what SE chose to do was to say that people who believe that XY is a guy are wrong and deserve no respect for their beliefs.
- skissane 7y ago
  > Similarly by referring to a person with XX chromosomes as she It is worth pointing out that there are non-transgender XX males [1]. They are very rare, but it can happen. If the part of the Y chromosome which contains the SRY (testis-determining factor) gene is translocated to the X chromosome, an individual can be an infertile XX male. I don't think anyone would try to argue that such a person is not actually male (assuming they in fact identify as such), in spite of their XX chromosomes, since their external appearance from birth can be completely male. (XX male individuals vary: some appear anatomically completely male, albeit sterile; others show incomplete masculinisation.) Biological sex cannot be reduced to chromosomes, although chromosomes can be used as a rule of thumb valid 99.99% of the time. In fact, I don't think there is any one single factor to which biological sex can be reduced; both maleness and femaleness are composites of collections of traits which usually occur together, but none of those traits is absolutely necessary to being of that biological sex. People who talk about biological sex as if it was completely determined by chromosomes are ignorant of the whole story. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome
luord 7y ago
I've been answering questions in Stack Overflow for over two years and I don't remember referring to anyone by anything other than the second person; I never saw SO as a platform that lended itself to talk about anyone in the third person. Regardless, this policy means that I'll be contributing even less frequently than I already do and, if/when that happens, I'll just keep using the second person. If I somehow slip, use the third person and someone ends up saying anything about "misgendering", I'll just delete the answer/comment and spend my time better doing something else.

99 points by scardine 7y ago

CM30 7y ago

Now it seems StackOverflow knows how YouTube feels whenever they post a YouTube Rewind video. That one got absolutely downvoted to all hell, and for similar reasons to this post. Hopefully they'll look at this, see the amount of dislikes it's getting and change course again/revert this mess to the way it was before.

notadoc 7y ago
Wrongthink
callinyouin 7y ago
This "mess" is an attempt to encourage/enforce basic decency in their community. Why do you think they should "change course"?
- wetpaws 7y ago
  Because using good causes for justifying bad actions is bad.
- zzzcpan 7y ago
  "Decency" is not a universal thing, so it's not acceptable to enforce your ways of being decent onto everyone else.
- throwaway66920 7y ago
  It’s like making it illegal to not greet your neighbor each morning. The underlying premise is to make things nicer, but it’s also just stupid. A good rule would be “try to be considerate of pronoun preferences”. The wants of the LGBTQA community are, in the eyes of the majority, probably not this. I like to be polite and respectful. I’ll be honest though, I would guess that less than 0.1% of the English speaking population identifies as “Xir” and that a non trivial portion of those that do are comfortable with the understanding that random strangers are more comfortable using gender neutral language. I would further posit that the portion of those that are not ok with people having points of view favoring even gender neutral language and instead demand the usage of the term Xir have adopted it as a counter cultural stance to combat heteronormativity- which honestly is fine, but it’s also a move made knowingly to make some people uncomfortable which by any metric must be ruder than someone who is just trying to avoid controversy at all by using gender neutral pronouns to begin with. I’m a left leaning adult, and I think it’s pretty bullshit. Especially on the Internet where women have been assumed to be men by default for decades. If I misgender someone, and they ask me to use any specific pronoun in the future, I probably will. If the responder instead gets angry and implies that I am rude because I made a common assumption, and instead asserts that I’m going to tell them to buzz off. Rudeness is clearly a subjective concept based around intent. And it’s frankly a waste of people’s time. Imagine if every post had pronouns at the end, and if every man then demanded a correction for a use of they instead of “he”. That would be a waste of time and disrespectful to the ability of everyone else to be an adult.
- luckylion 7y ago
  Are you suggesting that basic decency wasn't a thing on SO/SE before? I can count the number of rude interactions I've witnessed on two hands, and all of them were either people being angry about their shitty questions being flagged or fundamental disagreements over how software development should be done. This wasn't a significant problem for the community as a whole. Certainly, any individual might be hurt when it happens, but let's keep some perspective. I've also not heard anything about mods not being able to deal with instances when it happened. There were people trying to be within an inch of the rules (on other issues, I've never seen gender being an issue at all), and they were all easily dealt with because SO never claimed to apply any rules by the letter only. Granted, I'm speaking for the technical sites, law.se or pets.se may be terrible places, but I doubt it. Where did you witness that lack of basic decency?

fwip 7y ago

Wow, what a trainwreck in the comments. It's a shame that this is what happens whenever you remind developers to use common decency.

dlivingston 7y ago
The majority of comments have no qualms with respecting one's mode of self-identification, but rather, with the method by which S.E. has chosen to approach it. In other words, the commenters have an issue with the poor execution of a noble idea.
- Spivak 7y ago
  Genuinely, what's the poor execution? They seem to have basically codified "use someone's stated pronouns" with an awareness of the common ways people try to get around it. It seems like anyone who respects how other people identify will have hard time running up against this policy.
  - gwbas1c 7y ago
    > It seems like anyone who respects how other people identify will have hard time running up against this policy. Because the policy isn't about respecting gender identity; it's about having a political battle where there are no winners.
  - kelnos 7y ago
    The policy assumes that everyone will act in good faith, or will be explicit about acting in bad faith. That's a terrible assumption. For example: if I put an unfamiliar pronoun in my profile, and someone sees it, are they obligated to refer to me that way? What if I'm just trolling? Should people be required to google my preferred pronoun and then make a value judgment on whether I'm acting in good or bad faith? If they err on the side of assuming good faith, and I'm really just trolling, then we get an answer for all to see that includes someone falling for a troll, which reduces the value of that answer. It also normalizes trollish behavior, which is bad. If they believe I'm acting in bad faith, and they're wrong, they could get banned from the site, which is an overreaction to what I'd expect will be a common, innocent mistake. And that's just one example; there are plenty more in the comments.

RankingMember 7y ago

I think the blowback is really just about cognitive load. There's only so much you can expend on social mores before the actual subject you're discussing gets eclipsed. Everyone deserves equal respect, but I understand that when I'm not in the majority in a situation that my perspectives/language may be alien to some of those in the majority- I don't hold it against them unless there is explicit hostility. I find myself starting to subconsciously just use "you" or "them" and avoid any specific gendering altogether- in this day and age it just seems the least tiring route to go.

urthen 7y ago
Absolutely "They". They they they they they. English already has a perfectly good gender-neutral pronoun. I explicitly list my pronouns as "He/his or they/their" because I think the neopronouns are ultimately a way to gatekeep inclusivity, which is ironic.
- notadoc 7y ago
  What will happen with grammatically gendered languages, like Spanish?
  - gwbas1c 7y ago
    Then you need to go look up how it's handled in Spanish. BTW, English is gendered, just not as much as Spanish, French, and Italian are.
    - davvolun 7y ago
      What are you talking about? English is verifiably not as gendered as Spanish, at the very least. All nouns in Spanish require a gender article (el/la or los/las). In English, you do not have to figure out whether "día" should be prefixed with el or la -- and in the case of "día" despite it ending in "a" which usually implies feminine and la, it's actually masculine and is properly "el día." That doesn't even bring into it examples like ellos/ellas ("they" or "them" in English) referring to a male group or a female group where the standard rule is to use ellos if referring to an unknown group or even a group of 100 women and one man, the only application of ellas should be when you can verify every single member of the group is female.

hackerbabz 7y ago

I don’t know if I’ve ever written a single pronoun on stack overflow. I write a question referring only to myself “How do I...” Or I write an answer with “you”, or I reference another poster by name. I don’t quite understand why the admins thought this was a good use of energy, but I am also all for inclusivity. If I find the need for a pronoun, I will use “they” and not be bothered by it.

luckylion 7y ago
> If I find the need for a pronoun, I will use “they” and not be bothered by it. That will possibly get you a warning and, if you keep doing it, a ban. If you're using any pronouns and the person has written their preferred pronouns on their profile, you must use those. I believe that the whole issue is virtue signalling. It has none to very little actual practical value but is highly contentious (especially with draconian punishments for minor infractions), it's great as a signal and useless as a policy.
- hackerbabz 7y ago
  It absolutely says the opposite of that. > Q15: Is it expected that people go to "About me" to check whether someone has pronouns there when interacting in Q&A? No. That would be good practice, but it is not required.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    Oh, thanks for pointing that out. I had read the whole shebang yesterday and that Q&A has been added since then. Before the CoC was made public, the (unofficially) communicated approach was that checking the profile was to be mandatory.

armored99 7y ago

I'm going to get a stackoverflow account just so i can downvote this.

tharne 7y ago

What's particularly obnoxious about this type of political thought is the idea that "If you don't support forced or compelled speech in favor of X then you must be against X". The problems with this type of thinking are too obvious to list off.

generalpass 7y ago
After visiting a friend of mine who was attending UC Berkeley in the 90s, I made the comment that "if you don't have an open mind, then get the fuck out of here." This current movement feels very much like an extension of what I felt there.

folkhack 7y ago

If it's that much of a concern just put a validation filter on the comment submission box that has you "gender neutralize" your submission/answers if they find "he/her" type language in there. I mean - it's a clear-enough defined problem to solve with software and I've found that if you mess up a gender pronoun on accident people sometimes get deeply offended. I've gone 100% to the "they/them/you/their user name/etc." route because I just don't want to step on toes. I miss the days when everyone was just a silly textual username that didn't have a gender, age, religion, race, etc. I've gone years communicating with people without actually knowing their gender.

tstrimple 7y ago
For what it's worth, I've only ever encountered people getting "deeply offended" over intentional misrepresentation of gender. I hear far more people complaining about people being upset about being misgendered than people actually upset about being misgendered. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying that in my experience the counter-"outrage culture" in many cases blows things way more out of proportion than the "outrage culture" they rail against.
- mattnewport 7y ago
  The introduction of this policy rather contradicts your claim.
  - tstrimple 7y ago
    In what way? I think it only supports my claims. How much visible outrage was there from people being misgendered? Yet there is a thread full of people complaining about having to adjust their language. It seems to me there is way more people upset about changing language than were upset about being misgendered. Unless there is some meta thread you can point me to which is full of people complaining about being misgendered?
    - mattnewport 7y ago

atonse 7y ago

Obligatory need to say: I strongly believe in a live-and-let-live idea so yes, everyone should be treated fairly and with decency. Everyone. The odd thing here is that in most cases, rules regarding speech revolve around what _not_ to say. (cursing, hate speech, attacks, etc). But in this case, these kinds of things feel like they belong more as a list of good manners. But in this case, you aren't being told "this is what we feel are good manners", but you're forced to say certain things, but those rules can be all over the place (physically, on different pages, and complexity-wise). So now are people supposed to check each profile before responding? What's wrong with just saying s/he, or OP, or the various internet-isms? Do they cause so much harm? They are totally harmless and neutral, and not offensive. Or are they offensive now? Again, it's one thing if it was a guideline (like when we talk about manners), but this seems like users are being forced to say certain words (compelled speech), knowing which words to say requires them to do additional research, and that research usually has nothing to do with the content of the actual post.

mcphage 7y ago
> So now are people supposed to check each profile before responding? That question is specifically asked—and answered—in the linked article; the answer is no.

gwbas1c 7y ago

(Joke) Sometimes I wonder if we should all adopt thick accents so we can just use 'e (instead of he or she); hm (instead of her or him); and ha (instead of his or hers). (Please laugh)

gwbas1c 7y ago

I wonder how a non-native English speaker would handle this, especially if they came from a country that is still hostile to LGBTQ issues?

ksec 7y ago

[Off Topic] I was very late to the whole StackOverflow Saga, and didn't spend much time reading through all of its causes and comments at the time it happen. And when I did, the thing that struck me most and has been in many other places including HN ( Sometimes ) is the use of English presumes others are Americans, especially in technology sector. This completely ignores people all over the world using English to communicates. And this is not about cultures or values, but what is a pronoun? How do we use the correct "pronoun", how do we tell which one to use. I suspect many native English user will have cognitive load and may decide it is not worth the hassle and walk away. What about those that uses English as 2nd or even 3rd language. I remember a story my British Colleague once told me, our German Colleague is so good with his English, so precise that sometimes it is borderline rude if you didn't know he was German. i.e The tone is wrong, but Germany tends to be very explicit about things in their culture, not the same could be said about the Brits. It is important to understand the meaning, and messages that is trying to come across behind its written or verbal form, and often not literally what it meant. If we have to nitpick every single word, phase or grammatical mistake as well as whatever political issues it is with the usage of the word, we will very quickly end up with people not communicating to you ( or in this case Stack overflow ) in the fear of constantly being bashed and disrupted.

kelnos 7y ago
I don't think your post is off-topic at all. We have very few signals in this medium that can tell us if someone is acting in bad faith, or just simply made a mistake. The scary thing about this code of conduct change is that it's mandating required behavior, which is a little unusual: most items in a code of conduct remind people of things they should not do, but speak in general only about behaviors that promote inclusiveness. This new bit is very specific, and lays out rules for how to use language. English itself is not a particularly consistent language even within English-majority countries like the US or UK; differences are huge between countries, especially when English isn't the primary language, due both to cultural convention and personal skill with the language. I do think we should refer to people using their preferred pronouns when known. But we need to make allowances for mistakes; sadly I expect that the norm will be an assumption of bad faith when simple mistakes are likely to be the most common case.

kelnos 7y ago

I get that there is a much larger context to this (moderator losing her moderating bits over this issue, many other moderators stepping down in protest) that's almost certainly inflaming the discussion and driving a lot of the downvotes, but overall I don't really see much that's objectionable about this. Essentially it boils down to: if you know someone's preferred pronouns, use them. If not, use gender-neutral pronouns. They even specifically point out that there's no requirement to actively seek out someone's pronouns if you don't know; just use something gender-neutral and move on. I do see some issues, like: what if someone makes up a pronoun in bad faith, with the intention to troll people? There's some discussion around that in the comments, but the current policy seems to be "go along with it, but raise the issue with mods and they'll look into it", which is... not really a satisfying answer at all? And what if someone puts down a pronoun in good faith that you're simply unfamiliar with? Is it really reasonable to expect that answering a SE question will sometimes require googling someone's stated pronoun, followed by a value judgment to guess if they're trolling or not? I come to SE (well, mostly SO) for answers to technical questions. For the vast majority of them, gender has nothing to do with the question or answer. Someone in the comments links to a question where someone put their pronoun preference at the bottom of their question, followed by an edit war removing and re-adding it[0], plus there's a meta discussion of the question[1]. Pronoun discussion in a technical question that doesn't even have to do with people is just noise, plain and simple. But it seems the consensus among community managers is edging toward leaving the pronoun notification in there, even though their FAQ explicitly states that the right place for a pronoun preference is in the About Me section of the user profile. This is getting to be a bit much. [0] https://stackoverflow.com/posts/58336846/revisions https://stackoverflow.com/posts/58336846/revisions [1] https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/390301/would-a-note-about-preferred-pronouns-qualify-the-same-way-as-a-thank-you https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/390301/would-a-note...

progfix 7y ago

I use whatever pronoun I see fit and if I offend someone by using the wrong pronoun I will apology to that person and move on.

growse 7y ago
"I'll wave my fists wherever I see fit and if I end up hurting someone by punching them I'll apologise to that person and move on." Maybe stop waving your fists about?
- thaneross 7y ago
  As a marginalized person who has both been physically assaulted for my identity as well as been subjected to hate & discrimination, let me be clear that equivocation between words and violence is not helpful.
  - growse 7y ago
    I didn't mean for it to sound like an equivocation, and reading it back I see how it could be seen that way. I should have worded it better. What I'm trying to say is that we should all be aware that our actions occur in a context, and thinking about the possible implications of those actions is a good thing. This is true whether that action is a physical action, or speech, or even inaction etc. The attitude of the OP appeared to be more "I am free to do x and I'm not going to give any thought to what the possible consequences might be before I do x", which isn't particularly fun for everyone else.
happytoexplain 7y ago
"Whatever I see fit" typically is a declaration of defiance and rejection, rather than a simple "I'll try my best". If that characterization is accurate, it implies that your theoretical apology would be insincere. If so, why offer it?
- progfix 7y ago
  With "I see fit" I meant to use one that I assume is correct in the spirit of "I'll try my best". English is my second language and I should have worded my comment differently.

ladysman217 7y ago

ming the discussion and driving a lot of the downvotes, but overall I don't really see much that's objectionable about this. Essentially it boils down to: if you know someone's preferred pronouns, use them. If not, use gender-neutral pronouns. They even specifically point out that there's no requirement to actively seek

ladysman217 7y ago
Nothing better to do
fmajid 7y ago
https://dilbert.com/strip/1994-05-28 https://dilbert.com/strip/1994-05-28

ykevinator 7y ago

This story cannot die fast enough. The simplest solution is to pay moderators.

automathematics 7y ago

Just try and recognize you're not the only person on the internet. Do right by them, and if you fuck up, apologize and move on. If you're getting angry that you (might) upset someone else you need to take a hard look in the mirror. Not only because you're immediately acting like their feelings don't matter because you didn't MEAN to offend them. But also, why don't you have a hobby? If you do, apologize to the person you upset and move on and reclaim that time to do something productive.

Excel_Wizard 7y ago

It's really strange to me that a trans (or whatever) person would be offended at being called a standard pronoun. Seems like an easy mistake to make. I feel like the idea of choosing your own pronoun is fine and happy within an insular LGBTQ+ forum or venue. When it tries to take over the language everyone else uses, it's gonna do more harm than good. People that push it just seem to be selfish to me.

hypnagogicjerk 7y ago
Some people do deliberately (misgender) to antagonize a person. Particularly people who feel their culture is being redefined without them. By the way, EVERY trans person I know has been EXCEEDINGLY kind and understanding when I've made a mistake with their gender. Now, if I don't know it already, I ask what they prefer to be called the same way I would ask how to properly pronounce someone's name. "Pardon me, what are your pronouns?" If they've stated what their pronouns are then use them with the same respect you would muster to call someone by their proper name and pronunciation and spelling. The value here is no different, just more broadly applied then you're perhaps used to. If you deliberately misgender someone (show me a nerd hasn't had this or some similar slur used against them) then you're just a jerk and should be reprimanded. As an aside, to all the people complaining about non-English speakers doing enough work already participating in our idiom: 1) proper use of pronouns is essential to speaking English with or without neopronouns. 2) Many languages and cultures require VERY refined and strict understanding of a persons A) Age, B) Marital status, C) Gender and especially D) Social status before even beginning to address them.
- gwbas1c 7y ago
  > Some people do deliberately (misgender) to antagonize a person. There's a difference between childish behavior in real life, versus an internet forum where someone's name and profile picture don't really say much.
- tzs 7y ago
  If their preferred pronoun is non-gendered, how can using singular "they" misgender them?

axaxs 7y ago

I don't care how downvoted I get, I'll never call someone a made up pronoun. There is no word as xir as xe or latinx and i'm not participating in what I'd consider alarming participation of a mental illness. If you want me to call you he, or she, or as pointed just they, I don't think that's asking much. And I'll probably make a mistake, just mention it and move on. But the second you force this crap onto me, I'm out, which I'm sure pleases both sides.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
happytoexplain 7y ago
>mental illness Do you actually believe this, or are you using it as an insult? >I don't care how downvoted I get This hurts your comment so badly, especially as a leading statement.
- axaxs 7y ago
  >Do you actually believe this, or are you using it as an insult? I believe this, and mean it more as a matter of fact in a literal sense, and not as an insult. >This hurts your comment so badly, especially as a leading statement. To each their own. I know my audience. I lean conservative on a heavily west coast populated forum. I'm usually pretty easy going, but did draw a line in the sand on this. If every SE community trends this way, I'll pursue other interests.

Kye 7y ago

This one has me torn. Neopronouns are hard. I spend a lot of time in and around communities where these are used, and people who use them tend to be accepting of people using they/them. It's a compromise for the reality that most people aren't going to remember something they rarely use even if they want to. I rarely see people who use these pronouns, so I forget usage between encounters. Even most of the people screaming bloody murder in here say they're okay with they/them. I'm not sure who SE consulted on Q9, but xey are not representative of any neopronoun user I've met. They recognize it's a lot of extra mental load beyond the much more common they/they/their and make a small accommodation for people who struggle with it. I don't see any other issues on a skim, but that seems to be what's setting people off anyway so maybe that is it.

hirundo 7y ago

"Q9: Do I have to use pronouns I’m unfamiliar or uncomfortable with (e.g., neopronouns like xe, zir, ne... )? Yes, if those are stated by the individual." Therefore if someone says their pronouns are all Apache Attack Helicopter (and someone will), and you are aware of it, you are obligated to say things like "I think Apache Attack Helicopter made a good point". If I'm familiar with it, yet choose to say "I think they made a good point", I would have violated the code of conduct. That leads me to assume that I am unwelcome on this site and to look down the FAQ for the answer to the question, how do I delete my account? P.S. It's not in this FAQ, but https://stackoverflow.com/help/deleting-account https://stackoverflow.com/help/deleting-account.

Kye 7y ago
>> "Therefore if someone says their pronouns are all Apache Attack Helicopter (and someone will), and you are aware of it, you are obligated to say things like "I think Apache Attack Helicopter made a good point". If I'm familiar with it, yet choose to say "I think they made a good point", I would have violated the code of conduct." This would be obvious trolling. No one sincerely identifies as an Apache Attack Helicopter. No one doing this is making a worthwhile contribution, so there would be nothing worth engaging with. Report and move on.
- atonse 7y ago
  Here’s a better example that’s not as obvious: if I am not aware that ze was an accepted pronoun and someone told me to use it, how do I know its real and not them jokingly using “the” with a French accent? Should I report it as someone fooling around?
  - Kye 7y ago
    Is the post otherwise good? If so, Google/quack/whatever for ze pronoun and see what comes up. Search engines are better at surfacing explanations for them these days. In practice, you won't encounter them often, and it should be obvious if they're a troll. Those should be reported and otherwise ignored. You can worry yourself sick with these hypotheticals. You are more dynamic than you give yourself credit for.

amanzi 7y ago

I think the first 8 points are all totally acceptable and makes sense. But it goes downhill from there... I'm totally not comfortable calling someone by a strange-looking "neopronoun" that I'm unfamiliar with - I would rather avoid interacting with them than use those words.

tzs 7y ago

I could get behind a real fix to English pronouns that takes gender completely out of it and fixes the problem of ambiguity when you have more than one pronoun in a sentence. My proposal would be: 1. "he" becomes gender neutral, and always refers to the first person in the sentence. 2. "she" becomes gender neutral, and always refers to the second person in the sentence. You can think if it as standing for "second he". 3. "tehe" is a gender neutral pronoun that always refers to the third person in the sentence. Think of it is standing for "tertiary he". 4. "quhe", "pehe", "hehe" are the 4th, 5th, and 6th persons ("quad he", "penta he" and "hex he"). If your sentence has more than six persons, rewrite the damn thing. For example, in the sentence "Alice, Bob, and Carol took his car, she drove, and tehe paid for the gas", they took Alice's car, Bob drove, and Carol paid for the gas. If they took Bob's car, Carol drove, and Alice paid, that would be "Alice, Bob, and Carol took her car, tehe drove, and he paid for the gas".

frittig 7y ago
that's actually really interesting, I never thought of that. do you know if any languages have something like that?

dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago

This comment made me think: > Is using someone's personal pronoun really "showing respect" if you get banned otherwise?

frittig 7y ago

One issue that a lot of trans supporters don't realize is that similarly to how trans people could be offended when they are referred to by a gender not of their choice, so to could some speakers be offended if they are forced to refer to a person as a gender not of their (the speaker) choice. This may be easier to understand by using a comparison. When I talk about the Muslim prophet I say Muhammad. However, many Muslims would say Muhammad pbuh (peace be upon him). This isn't that problematic, but let's say they the term was Muhammad ttp (the true prophet). Now I as a non Muslim believer would never use ttp because that would be insulting for whoever I believe in. If SE required that whenever I mention Muhammad that I append ttp, I would refuse as it would be extremely offensive to me. Similarly by referring to a person with XX chromosomes as she, is offensive to people who believe that genders cannot change. A reasonable compromise would be to let whoever is righting chose what they want, or even allow gender neutral pronouns. But what SE chose to do was to say that people who believe that XY is a guy are wrong and deserve no respect for their beliefs.

skissane 7y ago
> Similarly by referring to a person with XX chromosomes as she It is worth pointing out that there are non-transgender XX males [1]. They are very rare, but it can happen. If the part of the Y chromosome which contains the SRY (testis-determining factor) gene is translocated to the X chromosome, an individual can be an infertile XX male. I don't think anyone would try to argue that such a person is not actually male (assuming they in fact identify as such), in spite of their XX chromosomes, since their external appearance from birth can be completely male. (XX male individuals vary: some appear anatomically completely male, albeit sterile; others show incomplete masculinisation.) Biological sex cannot be reduced to chromosomes, although chromosomes can be used as a rule of thumb valid 99.99% of the time. In fact, I don't think there is any one single factor to which biological sex can be reduced; both maleness and femaleness are composites of collections of traits which usually occur together, but none of those traits is absolutely necessary to being of that biological sex. People who talk about biological sex as if it was completely determined by chromosomes are ignorant of the whole story. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

luord 7y ago

I've been answering questions in Stack Overflow for over two years and I don't remember referring to anyone by anything other than the second person; I never saw SO as a platform that lended itself to talk about anyone in the third person. Regardless, this policy means that I'll be contributing even less frequently than I already do and, if/when that happens, I'll just keep using the second person. If I somehow slip, use the third person and someone ends up saying anything about "misgendering", I'll just delete the answer/comment and spend my time better doing something else.