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maybe, maybe not. other animal species use play as a way to simulate potentially dangerous scenarios in order to learn certain behaviors. i think it's naive to

by smhost 7y ago

maybe, maybe not. other animal species use play as a way to simulate potentially dangerous scenarios in order to learn certain behaviors. i think it's naive to assume that there's nothing instructive happening within core video game experiences.

learc83 7y ago
Those simulations are almost entirely about developing muscle memory. If you're talking driving or flying games with appropriate controllers, then they might provide some useful instruction. But first person shooters played with a controller or a keyboard and mouse are so disconnected from the reality of combat, that I can't imagine any kind of instruction that is applicable to the real world could possibly apply (actual training sims do exist and they work nothing like popular video games). Militaries around the world learned decades ago that the only way to desensitize troops to shooting to actually kill another human (as opposed to just firing in the general direction) was by developing the muscle memory through repeated exercises of actually firing a rifle at a man shaped target. I've seen no evidence of increased propensity to violence, or increased skill at violence over the last 30 years. If anything violent crime rates have dropped drastically, and recruits are worse performing because they are more likely to be out of shape, and less likely to have actually fired a gun.
- smhost 7y ago
  you're mostly arguing against a straw man, so i won't address those points, but there are still some interesting things you're wrong about. so even if you take away the controllers completely, decades of marketing industry research teaches us that you can train certain behaviors among media consumers. for example, chomsky talks about how the marketing industry targeted children's nagging behavior so that they will pester their parents to buy them products. and we all know about how bernays coopted feminist symbolism to sell cigarettes to women. video games are a lot more dynamic than traditional media, and it's harder to control and harder to analyze, so i would never say something so stupid as "video games cause gun violence," but a video game is not some kind of a magical medium that's exempt from the basic geometries of human psychology. part of the frustration is that we have no idea what the hell new media is doing to us.
  - learc83 7y ago
    >you're mostly arguing against a straw man, so i won't address those points, but there are still some interesting things you're wrong about. So you're going to ignore basically my entire point. This: >other animal species use play as a way to simulate potentially dangerous scenarios in order to learn certain behaviors. Carries much stronger implications than--to paraphrase your new argument--video games can be used as an advertising medium. It may not have been your intention, but your first argument is the same argument that pundits use to argue that video games "train people to be killers." Even assuming that wasn't your intent, that animals use play to train for for combat is completely unrelated to a person on TV telling children to ask their parents for something. That's just a human using their persuasive abilities, it has nothing to do with simulated combat.
TulliusCicero 7y ago
> i think it's naive to assume that there's nothing instructive happening within core video game experiences If you're talking about increased aggression, then I'd argue it's naive to believe the opposite. Scientific studies have shown no long-term impact on aggressive behavior from violent games. Now, that they might teach you a thing or two about guns, and even basic military tactics in some cases, sure. But by itself, that's not really a bad thing.

by smhost 7y ago

learc83 7y ago

Those simulations are almost entirely about developing muscle memory. If you're talking driving or flying games with appropriate controllers, then they might provide some useful instruction. But first person shooters played with a controller or a keyboard and mouse are so disconnected from the reality of combat, that I can't imagine any kind of instruction that is applicable to the real world could possibly apply (actual training sims do exist and they work nothing like popular video games). Militaries around the world learned decades ago that the only way to desensitize troops to shooting to actually kill another human (as opposed to just firing in the general direction) was by developing the muscle memory through repeated exercises of actually firing a rifle at a man shaped target. I've seen no evidence of increased propensity to violence, or increased skill at violence over the last 30 years. If anything violent crime rates have dropped drastically, and recruits are worse performing because they are more likely to be out of shape, and less likely to have actually fired a gun.

smhost 7y ago
you're mostly arguing against a straw man, so i won't address those points, but there are still some interesting things you're wrong about. so even if you take away the controllers completely, decades of marketing industry research teaches us that you can train certain behaviors among media consumers. for example, chomsky talks about how the marketing industry targeted children's nagging behavior so that they will pester their parents to buy them products. and we all know about how bernays coopted feminist symbolism to sell cigarettes to women. video games are a lot more dynamic than traditional media, and it's harder to control and harder to analyze, so i would never say something so stupid as "video games cause gun violence," but a video game is not some kind of a magical medium that's exempt from the basic geometries of human psychology. part of the frustration is that we have no idea what the hell new media is doing to us.
- learc83 7y ago
  >you're mostly arguing against a straw man, so i won't address those points, but there are still some interesting things you're wrong about. So you're going to ignore basically my entire point. This: >other animal species use play as a way to simulate potentially dangerous scenarios in order to learn certain behaviors. Carries much stronger implications than--to paraphrase your new argument--video games can be used as an advertising medium. It may not have been your intention, but your first argument is the same argument that pundits use to argue that video games "train people to be killers." Even assuming that wasn't your intent, that animals use play to train for for combat is completely unrelated to a person on TV telling children to ask their parents for something. That's just a human using their persuasive abilities, it has nothing to do with simulated combat.

TulliusCicero 7y ago

> i think it's naive to assume that there's nothing instructive happening within core video game experiences If you're talking about increased aggression, then I'd argue it's naive to believe the opposite. Scientific studies have shown no long-term impact on aggressive behavior from violent games. Now, that they might teach you a thing or two about guns, and even basic military tactics in some cases, sure. But by itself, that's not really a bad thing.