5 ms·

> Violence is entertaining on some level. Even cutesy games like Mario have him stomping on mushrooms and turtles and avoiding deadly obstacles. Sure, but so a

> Violence is entertaining on some level. Even cutesy games like Mario have him stomping on mushrooms and turtles and avoiding deadly obstacles. Sure, but so are lots of things. It's just a cultural artifact of the west's love and expectation of violent solutions to conflict that we glorify this activity over others. For example, a game of Go is surely a conflict between two people, but unlike a game of Overwatch or the like it involves a lot fewer guns, bombs, and patchy plots about world governments authorizing unilateral violence. > I've also heard it said that all good stories involve conflict. This is a cultural lens. Lots of stories don't have an external conflict and they can be great. You know what's a great example of this? The Moive Jacob's Ladder. It was about someone reflecting on their life with pride and regret, not actual conflict. People frame this, unsurprisingly, as "Man vs Nature". But we might as well also define it as "Human Overcomes Hardship." And that line seems much more natural. Surely much of our hardship is inflicted by our peers, but is it a deliberate "versus" scenario? I suspect not.

learc83 7y ago
>Sure, but so are lots of things. It's just a cultural artifact of the west's love and expectation of violent solutions to conflict that we glorify this activity over others. For example, a game of Go is surely a conflict between two people, but unlike a game of Overwatch or the like it involves a lot fewer guns, bombs, and patchy plots about world governments authorizing unilateral violence. I don't think this really has anything to do with the west. Non western cultures have been producing violent art before the west even existed, and if you look at modern non-western movies and games, they aren't less likely to involve violence. As for Go, people in countries that play Go also play plenty of games that are violent, and plenty of people in the west play Checkers.
- KirinDave 7y ago
  I can't work out what this post is saying. What do you mean? My point about Go was that Go is still a game of conflict, but it's not a game where we murder one another or try to anthropomorphize the pieces to make it more like actual killing.
  - learc83 7y ago
    > It's just a cultural artifact of the west's love and expectation of violent solutions to conflict that we glorify this activity over others. The implication to this sentence is that the west is unique in this regard. The only non-violent exemplar game you presented being a non-western game strengthens this implication. The point of my post was to make an argument against that suggestion. If you didn't mean to imply that, then it really has no point. However, if that was the case why mention the west at all? Particularly when the OP gave a non-western example (Mario) in the first place.
    - KirinDave 7y ago
      > The implication to this sentence is that the west is unique in this regard. The only non-violent exemplar game you presented being a non-western game strengthens this implication. Unique? No. Distinct in character, yes. > The only non-violent exemplar game you presented being a non-western game strengthens this implication. Minecraft. Night in the Woods. Slenderman. Kerbal Space Program. SpaceChem, TIS-80, InfiniMiner, InfiniFactory, a huge portion of Stellaris's gameplay. Untitled Goose Game. Online Go. Candy Crush. Many many subgames in Roblox. Can you stop this line of questioning now? It's boring.
      - learc83 7y ago
        >Unique? No. Distinct in character, yes. So not unique. But actually unique? >Minecraft. Night in the Woods. Slenderman. Kerbal Space Program. SpaceChem, TIS-80, InfiniMiner, InfiniFactory, a huge portion of Stellaris's gameplay. Untitled Goose Game. Online Go. Candy Crush. Many many subgames in Roblox. Had you used those examples in your original post, then it would have had less of that implication. >Can you stop this line of questioning now? It's boring. If you weren't implying that the west has a "love and expectation of violent solutions" while the rest of the world does not, or that the west has more of a "love and expectation of violent solutions" than the rest of the world, then just say so. Or you are free to stop responding if you're bored. I won't be offended.
        7y ago
- brownbat 7y ago
  >> It's just a cultural artifact of the west's love and expectation of violent solutions > I don't think this really has anything to do with the west. I grew up (in the West) watching HK action films and samurai movies, so I hear you. It's exasperating to have to continually point out that fantasy and reality are different things when others stubbornly refuse to accept that. Exemplified by Tarantino losing it after probably the millionth time he was grilled about violence in media: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7k4GQSGvx8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7k4GQSGvx8
  - KirinDave 7y ago
    Why do you think this is exclusively about the west? I pointed to my culture's unique flavor of violence loving, but I didn't suggest that video games were causal nor did I suggest that we were unique, merely distinct.
chrisco255 7y ago
Go is a great game but you have to admit that certain personality types gravitate to strategy and logic based games and large swaths of the population are not interested at all in Go. If Go were inherently more interesting to most of the population, we would spectate on matches with larger audiences than UFC fights or football games. Chess is another great game but it uses medieval battlefield as an analogy to explain the pieces and their different capabilities. When you look at ancient myths and legends, violence is often part of the story. This is not a modern creation. This is cross-cultural and deeply woven in our psyche. What you described with Jacob's Ladder sounds like internal conflict. It's not violent conflict, but the conflict is always there in any interesting story. Even romance novels are often about conflicted feelings or the decision between one romantic partner or another. If you think of your top 10 favorite movies I think its likely violent conflict is a key plot device in most of them. It's gripping. There's more on the line. When survival is at stake, you're more invested in the characters.
- KirinDave 7y ago
  Conflict and violence are distinct things. I'm arguing that specifically realistic PvP violence is a regrettable focus of modern competitive gaming, and it didn't used to be that way.
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    So you're suggesting that 'realistic PvP violence' in video games is specific to the West? You know this is an incredibly easy claim to disprove, right? Also, is that PvP in the conventional gaming sense, or in the sense of attacking human characters in games in general (i.e. including single-player games with human on human violence)?
    - KirinDave 7y ago
      No. I never did. Please stop.
      - TulliusCicero 7y ago
TulliusCicero 7y ago
> It's just a cultural artifact of the >> west's << love and expectation of violent solutions to conflict that we glorify this activity over others. Hoo boy, should I be the one to tell him?
- KirinDave 7y ago
  Them. And uh, I hate to break it to you but the specifics here are distinct to the west. Violence is a common theme in society, but specifically encouraging kids to engage in semi-realistic and fatal violence is not something a lot of cultures do to the extent America in particular does. Half the cartoons I grew up watching as a kid couldn't even be shown in the UK, let alone other countries.
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    > distinct to the west. > to the extent America in particular does. > couldn't even be shown in the UK Wait, so the UK isn't part of the West now? Since when? Have you not looked at Japan? Shonen there has to be censored to be shown in the states. No showing Goku with a hole through his chest for American kids! And violent video games are popular practically the world over these days. It's true that America makes a large number of them, but it's hardly specific to the US, and certainly playing them isn't. To suggest otherwise is to betray deep ignorance on the subject.
    - KirinDave 7y ago
      > Wait, so the UK isn't part of the West now? Since when? I didn't say that. I am pointing out America is even more extreme about this than other traditionally western nations. > Have you not looked at Japan? Shonen there has to be censored to be shown in the states. No showing Goku with a hole through his chest for American kids! Weird how no one had effective guns until Super, but sure. Of course in the narrative of DBZ no one could die, so it's a bit different... > And violent video games are popular practically the world over these days. It's true that America makes a large number of them, but it's hardly specific to the US, and certainly playing them isn't. To suggest otherwise is to betray deep ignorance on the subject. > It's true that America makes a large number of them, but it's hardly specific to the US, and certainly playing them isn't. I can't even work out what you mean by this. I didn't say they don't exist, just that alternatives do. It's pretty clear to me you're having a conversation with me about something other than what I said. I'm not sure how I can fix that since your only positive statements are misrepresenting what I said. So, good luck and good bye.
bigred100 7y ago
Isn’t the film very much exactly about man vs. God? More or less explained explicitly when the chiropractor paraphrases Meister Eckhart and tells Jacob that he’s clinging to his mortal life while God is trying to pull him away from it.

learc83 7y ago

>Sure, but so are lots of things. It's just a cultural artifact of the west's love and expectation of violent solutions to conflict that we glorify this activity over others. For example, a game of Go is surely a conflict between two people, but unlike a game of Overwatch or the like it involves a lot fewer guns, bombs, and patchy plots about world governments authorizing unilateral violence. I don't think this really has anything to do with the west. Non western cultures have been producing violent art before the west even existed, and if you look at modern non-western movies and games, they aren't less likely to involve violence. As for Go, people in countries that play Go also play plenty of games that are violent, and plenty of people in the west play Checkers.

KirinDave 7y ago
I can't work out what this post is saying. What do you mean? My point about Go was that Go is still a game of conflict, but it's not a game where we murder one another or try to anthropomorphize the pieces to make it more like actual killing.
- learc83 7y ago
  > It's just a cultural artifact of the west's love and expectation of violent solutions to conflict that we glorify this activity over others. The implication to this sentence is that the west is unique in this regard. The only non-violent exemplar game you presented being a non-western game strengthens this implication. The point of my post was to make an argument against that suggestion. If you didn't mean to imply that, then it really has no point. However, if that was the case why mention the west at all? Particularly when the OP gave a non-western example (Mario) in the first place.
  - KirinDave 7y ago
    > The implication to this sentence is that the west is unique in this regard. The only non-violent exemplar game you presented being a non-western game strengthens this implication. Unique? No. Distinct in character, yes. > The only non-violent exemplar game you presented being a non-western game strengthens this implication. Minecraft. Night in the Woods. Slenderman. Kerbal Space Program. SpaceChem, TIS-80, InfiniMiner, InfiniFactory, a huge portion of Stellaris's gameplay. Untitled Goose Game. Online Go. Candy Crush. Many many subgames in Roblox. Can you stop this line of questioning now? It's boring.
    - learc83 7y ago
      >Unique? No. Distinct in character, yes. So not unique. But actually unique? >Minecraft. Night in the Woods. Slenderman. Kerbal Space Program. SpaceChem, TIS-80, InfiniMiner, InfiniFactory, a huge portion of Stellaris's gameplay. Untitled Goose Game. Online Go. Candy Crush. Many many subgames in Roblox. Had you used those examples in your original post, then it would have had less of that implication. >Can you stop this line of questioning now? It's boring. If you weren't implying that the west has a "love and expectation of violent solutions" while the rest of the world does not, or that the west has more of a "love and expectation of violent solutions" than the rest of the world, then just say so. Or you are free to stop responding if you're bored. I won't be offended.
      - 7y ago
brownbat 7y ago
>> It's just a cultural artifact of the west's love and expectation of violent solutions > I don't think this really has anything to do with the west. I grew up (in the West) watching HK action films and samurai movies, so I hear you. It's exasperating to have to continually point out that fantasy and reality are different things when others stubbornly refuse to accept that. Exemplified by Tarantino losing it after probably the millionth time he was grilled about violence in media: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7k4GQSGvx8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7k4GQSGvx8
- KirinDave 7y ago
  Why do you think this is exclusively about the west? I pointed to my culture's unique flavor of violence loving, but I didn't suggest that video games were causal nor did I suggest that we were unique, merely distinct.

chrisco255 7y ago

Go is a great game but you have to admit that certain personality types gravitate to strategy and logic based games and large swaths of the population are not interested at all in Go. If Go were inherently more interesting to most of the population, we would spectate on matches with larger audiences than UFC fights or football games. Chess is another great game but it uses medieval battlefield as an analogy to explain the pieces and their different capabilities. When you look at ancient myths and legends, violence is often part of the story. This is not a modern creation. This is cross-cultural and deeply woven in our psyche. What you described with Jacob's Ladder sounds like internal conflict. It's not violent conflict, but the conflict is always there in any interesting story. Even romance novels are often about conflicted feelings or the decision between one romantic partner or another. If you think of your top 10 favorite movies I think its likely violent conflict is a key plot device in most of them. It's gripping. There's more on the line. When survival is at stake, you're more invested in the characters.

KirinDave 7y ago
Conflict and violence are distinct things. I'm arguing that specifically realistic PvP violence is a regrettable focus of modern competitive gaming, and it didn't used to be that way.
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  So you're suggesting that 'realistic PvP violence' in video games is specific to the West? You know this is an incredibly easy claim to disprove, right? Also, is that PvP in the conventional gaming sense, or in the sense of attacking human characters in games in general (i.e. including single-player games with human on human violence)?
  - KirinDave 7y ago
    No. I never did. Please stop.
    - TulliusCicero 7y ago

TulliusCicero 7y ago

> It's just a cultural artifact of the >> west's << love and expectation of violent solutions to conflict that we glorify this activity over others. Hoo boy, should I be the one to tell him?

KirinDave 7y ago
Them. And uh, I hate to break it to you but the specifics here are distinct to the west. Violence is a common theme in society, but specifically encouraging kids to engage in semi-realistic and fatal violence is not something a lot of cultures do to the extent America in particular does. Half the cartoons I grew up watching as a kid couldn't even be shown in the UK, let alone other countries.
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  > distinct to the west. > to the extent America in particular does. > couldn't even be shown in the UK Wait, so the UK isn't part of the West now? Since when? Have you not looked at Japan? Shonen there has to be censored to be shown in the states. No showing Goku with a hole through his chest for American kids! And violent video games are popular practically the world over these days. It's true that America makes a large number of them, but it's hardly specific to the US, and certainly playing them isn't. To suggest otherwise is to betray deep ignorance on the subject.
  - KirinDave 7y ago
    > Wait, so the UK isn't part of the West now? Since when? I didn't say that. I am pointing out America is even more extreme about this than other traditionally western nations. > Have you not looked at Japan? Shonen there has to be censored to be shown in the states. No showing Goku with a hole through his chest for American kids! Weird how no one had effective guns until Super, but sure. Of course in the narrative of DBZ no one could die, so it's a bit different... > And violent video games are popular practically the world over these days. It's true that America makes a large number of them, but it's hardly specific to the US, and certainly playing them isn't. To suggest otherwise is to betray deep ignorance on the subject. > It's true that America makes a large number of them, but it's hardly specific to the US, and certainly playing them isn't. I can't even work out what you mean by this. I didn't say they don't exist, just that alternatives do. It's pretty clear to me you're having a conversation with me about something other than what I said. I'm not sure how I can fix that since your only positive statements are misrepresenting what I said. So, good luck and good bye.

bigred100 7y ago

Isn’t the film very much exactly about man vs. God? More or less explained explicitly when the chiropractor paraphrases Meister Eckhart and tells Jacob that he’s clinging to his mortal life while God is trying to pull him away from it.