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From a Spaniard who never understood the indepentist movement, and assuming you're in it by the tone of your message: Why this movement, what do you expect to h

• davidw 7y ago
  Thought: you guys ought to email one another. I find that private conversations tend to fare better than public ones, which can easily become "pissing matches".
• iagovar 7y ago
  I think it's been too long now to get concrete answers. Many people support independence because it become an identity, because they have socialized on it during their mid twenties or so. As an example, I have had some discussions with independence supporters where they have denied me, categorically and multiple times, that at the beginning of the mediatization of the conflict, one of the most important arguments and that was debated with intensity in the television and internet gatherings was that Catalonia contributed much more money than it received, and that such a thing was unfair. So many people simply want to become independent, regardless of the arguments against and in favour, and of any cost-benefit analysis.
• chr1 7y ago
  Somehow everyone agrees that European countries losing their overseas colonies was a good thing, but neighbouring colonies are considered inseparable parts of the nation that happened to be stronger. Think how you would feel if Spain was part of Portugal, France, Morocco, or Germany, Spanish language was a minority language in Spain, and you would have spent significant amount of time reading books or learning about the war or some other event that had changed the flow of history and led your country to not exist on the map. Disclaimer: I am not from Catalonia, but from a country that barely got organized in time to be a separate state, and i am happy about that, as smaller more local governments work better, than the very centralized and huge government we would have now if our separatists did not manage to organize in time.
• andratwiro 7y ago
  I think the discussion surrounds two issues right now: 1) Freeing the politicians. There's plenty of examples of politicians interfering in judicial decisions [1]. Currently, 45% of the Catalan electorate have their elected politicians in jail. 2) Discuss with the central government the best way to modify the constitution to allow a mechanism for people to vote for what they want. I wouldn't consider myself an independentist, but being surrounded by people that are, I've come to understand that the biggest issue is whether they have the right to even have a vote on how they want to govern themselves. As for the arguments for the independence of Catalonia, as other people mentioned here, there are several and as varied as people are in Catalonia. The first step though is to be able to even have this discussion in the form of a referendum, even if the final result is staying in Spain. [1] https://civio.es/el-indultometro/ https://civio.es/el-indultometro/
• ryanlol 7y ago
  I never understood the independence movement until I watched Spanish police beat up innocent people who just dared to show up and vote in the referendum. I'm still not a big fan of the independence movement, but it's hard to disagree with them given the actions Madrid is taking. Most foreigners I've talked to in Catalonia seem to agree with me. They don't give a fuck about the independence movement, they're simply mad about how poorly Madrid has been handling this. Even today, most big streets in Barcelona have been shut by the police. You drive past and you see empty stretches of road full of police cars for no reason, the whole city is paralyzed. E: lol, downvoted for a honest answer to someone who wanted to learn. It's exactly this kind of responses by Spaniards creating the strife.
  • enriquto 7y ago
    Lol, don't worry about the downvotes. Just a handful of enraged unionists can make your comment almost disappear. No big deal. It is actually quite funny to see them scared like that.
• enriquto 7y ago
  > From a Spaniard who never understood the indepentist movement, and assuming you're in it by the tone of your message: Why this movement, what do you expect to happen if Catalonia becomes independent > Before we make any assumptions, please consider that I'm asking this truly from an intention of learning, and not trying to bait any flames, or establishing my position. I've just never had the opportunity to talk to someone on "the other side". Thank you for asking this so politely! I appreciate it very much. Really, thanks! It is very rare that Spaniards take this attitude, and it feels like a breath of fresh air. Regarding your question, not all independence supporters share the same reasons. I think my particular reasons are not very representative, so do not take what I say as too relevant in the grand scheme of things. But I can only speak for myself. My only reason for wanting a catalan state, separate from spain, is concern for the short-term existence of my language. I could not care less about the economic situation. I have witnessed since my youth in the eighties the slow decline of catalan usage, and its replacement by spanish. I realize that this is not a very important concern; the world has far worse problems, but it is still a legitimate concern that merits political attention. I am anti-nationalist and internationalist, but this does not mean that all languages on Earth must disappear except one, and all cultures must be merged into a single one. Most of my life I have not been pro-independence. I identified proudly as a catalan-speaking spaniard, and even had t-shirts with the spanish flag as I traveled around Europe. It was in 2003, on a summer travel in Portugal with people from Spain (spanish speakers), that I realized that they did not see the catalan culture as a legitimate part of the culture of their own country. Somehow, the catalan language was "less spanish" than the spanish language. I found this idea illogical, and the fact that they seriously espoused it was deeply outraging. Then they pointed me to the spanish constitution, that states clearly in its infamous Article 3, that spanish language is the preferred language in front of the other, lesser, local languages. This was clearly contrary to my view on how things should be, but it was just a law that could be changed if most people agreed, and it seemed logical than most people would. I did not become separatist at this point. Instead, I embarked in a sort of personal crusade trying to convince all spanish people that I knew that they should accept the possibility of the catalan language being the sole official language in the catalan countries, lest it would disappear and they would lose an important part of the culture of their country. To no avail: the fact that a person from Valladolid who moved to Girona had to learn the local language was so foreign to all castilians that it left me in sad despair. But I did not become separatist at this point. Instead, I was moved by the enthusiasm around a new proposal for a local law ("estatut de Catalunya 2006"), that had the support of the spanish socialist party (then the main party in the state, thanks in part to its overwhelming support by catalans and andalusians), and also the support of all the parties in the catalan parliament except the spanish conservative party, which had a minor presence there. This new local law established the equality of the rights for the speakers of both languages in the territory of Catalonia. I did not agree with the form (both languages were to become equally official, and citizens had the right to communicate with the spanish administration in either language), because I really preferred a single official language, but still, it was a reasonable compromise. Then there was a referendum in Catalonia, under the auspices and support of the spanish state, and the new "estatut" was approved by an overwhelming majority. Once it was approved, the spanish parliament decided to "cut" it and remove some articles (notably that of the official languages) and the spanish constitutional court declared it "unconstitutional". I found this very disturbing, and the removal of the articles undemocratic and offensive. But I did not become separatist at this point. It was just a shitty generation of spanish politicians, and in a few years we would get some fresh, young people who would be more tolerant than old dinosaurs like Alfonso Guerra and Manuel Fraga, the main figureheads of opposition to the catalan "estatut". No worry about that. After all, I was spanish, and catalan was just as spanish as the other official languages, and what I wanted to do was to change spanish law for a better fit with my concerns. Also, this view was shared by millions of people in Catalonia, so it would be just a question of time. Why do I think the catalan language will disappear if it does not become the sole official language in at least a major part of its territory? Besides programming languages, I have a keen interest in human linguistics, and I have read a lot about its amazing possibilities, and the history and the evolution of languages. I have learned that diglossia (the simultaneous presence of two languages by the same people) is an unstable situation that invariably resolves in the slow disappearance of the least powerful language. A language that has no monolingual people seems to be doomed to disappear. This is clearly the case for the catalan language, and it is enforced explicitly by the spanish constitution. I understand that languages evolve and disappear, and it is ridiculous to feel sad about this natural evolution. But when this evolution is biased by a law with which I do not agree, and which the speakers of the more powerful language refuse absolutely to change, it becomes mildly infuriating. But I did not become separatist at this point, yet. At the end of the day, my language would be alive as long as I was, so it was kind of a stupid concern to be worried by the disappearance of something that, by definition, I could never witness. What triggered me was a very emotional situation. My grandmother--who did not speak spanish--had fallen and was spending a few weeks at the hospital. She could not communicate easily with the nurses, who were all foreigners and only spoke spanish. A quite correct spanish, by the way, due to the fact that you can only work in Spain if you speak spanish, regardless of whether you speak catalan or not. Seeing my dying nan struggle to communicate with their caretakers during the day (my family spent most of the nights there) was, to put it lightly, extremely enraging. Now it was not a rational decision; protecting the existence of my language became an emotional issue. A prioritary issue in my political criteria. Now, I did not still became separatist, due to that problem. It was the result of a very rational argument. Now that the catalan language is a main priority, there are two possibilities. 1. Change the laws of Spain so that Catalan becomes the sole official language in the catalan territories. 2. Separate Catalonia from Spain, and change the catalan laws. I disliked both alternatives. The first alternative is my preferred, but sadly it is utopical. If Spain could just accept that the spanish language is not official in part of its territory, I would proudly wave a spanish flag again. The ideal example is Switzerland, where each language is official alone in its territory, all on equal grounds, and all the swiss people share a beautiful sense of unity. But any rational person agrees today that accepting such a thing is an impossible burden to impose to the majority of spaniards. Maybe I am wrong, but in that case it must be a majority of spaniards that convince me back. The second possibility is awful also. For one, all separatist parties have made a major point of their programs that the catalan republic must be bilingual, which in my view does not solve anything. I do not see the point of an independent spanish-speaking catalonia. Yet, I think that convincing the catalan parties that bilinguism must be catalan/english and not catalan/spanish is much less chimerical than convincing the spanish parties. So here we are. In the end, whatever the reason, I think that the catalan-speaking people is, well, a people, and it has the right to decide, alone, about its future. As a member of this people, I understand that I want to fight for the independence of my country. Regarding your Brexit reference, I believe that brexiters are nuts and I identify with the scots, who want to escape the English crazyness and stay in the european union for good. I want to escape the Spanish craziness, which I deem impossible to reform. I actually find the idea of wanting to reform spain as abhorrent. As a catalan, I desire the well-being of my western neighbors, but they must sort out their problems themselves.