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Because this pro-nuclear punditry tends to involve a comparison to the worst of fossil fuels (and a fuel source that's in decline, at least in the developed wor

by cletus 7y ago

Because this pro-nuclear punditry tends to involve a comparison to the worst of fossil fuels (and a fuel source that's in decline, at least in the developed world) and tends to present this as a binary choice.

maxerickson 7y ago
That's fair. In the shorter term, I think it's true enough. Germany and Japan (both wealthy, highly developed nations) have both increased consumption of coal in order to move away from nuclear. I won't argue that's what they will do in the longer term though.
- svara 7y ago
  That's not true for Germany, see my comment above. Germany has nearly completely replaced nuclear with renewables, and is now (slowly) phasing out coal. Coal has been mostly constant with a slight downward trend in the past 15 years.
Gravey 7y ago
I think you’ve made some valid points in your previous post, but I’m not sure I buy this as a valid argument. A quick google search tells me that 30.1% of US energy generation comes from coal [1] (at least in 2017), with 62.7% coming from fossil fuels overall. Unless you’re proposing switching to a ‘cleaner’ fossil fuel source, there’s only so much wind/solar/geothermal can contribute until we see major leaps in the available technologies. Until that time I will continue to view them as a supplemental power source, rather than a primary one. [1]https://toxmap.nlm.nih.gov/toxmap/faq/2009/08/how-much-of-the-us-electricity-generation-is-attributed-to-coal.html https://toxmap.nlm.nih.gov/toxmap/faq/2009/08/how-much-of-th...
- ErrantX 7y ago
  Just on your specific point; the US is a bit of an outlier on coal due to protectionist practices around the coal industry. If you look at Europe on the other hand coal is in rapid decline (9% decrease 2017-2018 for example[1]) with many countries now being coal free. In the UK we measure coal free time in weeks now. I expect us to be coal free for good in only a couple of years. In some countries this is a straight switch to renewables but but often I think it's a staged switch through natural gas. 1. https://sandbag.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/The-European-Power-Sector-in-2018-1.pdf https://sandbag.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/The-Europe...
  - durandal1 7y ago
    On the other hand look at Germany, who has arguable gone the furthest in the "green transition", which includes shutting down their nuclear power plats. It imports 60+% of its energy, most of it from fossil fuel sources. But hey, German energy production looks awesome from an environmental perspective!
    - ErrantX 7y ago
      That was mostly a (slightly wierd) knee jerk after Fukushima. They are definitely another outlier.
    - svara 7y ago
      That's totally false, where did you get this from? Germany is a net exporter of electricity [0]. Nuclear is being phased out and replaced by renewables. [1] Yes, that totally sucks for CO_2 emissions... [0] https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/153533/umfrage/stromimportsaldo-von-deutschland-seit-1990/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/153533/umfrag... [1] https://i2.wp.com/adveco.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/EU-power-generation-by-source.jpg https://i2.wp.com/adveco.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/EU-po...

by cletus 7y ago

maxerickson 7y ago

That's fair. In the shorter term, I think it's true enough. Germany and Japan (both wealthy, highly developed nations) have both increased consumption of coal in order to move away from nuclear. I won't argue that's what they will do in the longer term though.

svara 7y ago
That's not true for Germany, see my comment above. Germany has nearly completely replaced nuclear with renewables, and is now (slowly) phasing out coal. Coal has been mostly constant with a slight downward trend in the past 15 years.

Gravey 7y ago

I think you’ve made some valid points in your previous post, but I’m not sure I buy this as a valid argument. A quick google search tells me that 30.1% of US energy generation comes from coal [1] (at least in 2017), with 62.7% coming from fossil fuels overall. Unless you’re proposing switching to a ‘cleaner’ fossil fuel source, there’s only so much wind/solar/geothermal can contribute until we see major leaps in the available technologies. Until that time I will continue to view them as a supplemental power source, rather than a primary one. [1]https://toxmap.nlm.nih.gov/toxmap/faq/2009/08/how-much-of-the-us-electricity-generation-is-attributed-to-coal.html https://toxmap.nlm.nih.gov/toxmap/faq/2009/08/how-much-of-th...

ErrantX 7y ago
Just on your specific point; the US is a bit of an outlier on coal due to protectionist practices around the coal industry. If you look at Europe on the other hand coal is in rapid decline (9% decrease 2017-2018 for example[1]) with many countries now being coal free. In the UK we measure coal free time in weeks now. I expect us to be coal free for good in only a couple of years. In some countries this is a straight switch to renewables but but often I think it's a staged switch through natural gas. 1. https://sandbag.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/The-European-Power-Sector-in-2018-1.pdf https://sandbag.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/The-Europe...
- durandal1 7y ago
  On the other hand look at Germany, who has arguable gone the furthest in the "green transition", which includes shutting down their nuclear power plats. It imports 60+% of its energy, most of it from fossil fuel sources. But hey, German energy production looks awesome from an environmental perspective!
  - ErrantX 7y ago
    That was mostly a (slightly wierd) knee jerk after Fukushima. They are definitely another outlier.
  - svara 7y ago
    That's totally false, where did you get this from? Germany is a net exporter of electricity [0]. Nuclear is being phased out and replaced by renewables. [1] Yes, that totally sucks for CO_2 emissions... [0] https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/153533/umfrage/stromimportsaldo-von-deutschland-seit-1990/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/153533/umfrag... [1] https://i2.wp.com/adveco.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/EU-power-generation-by-source.jpg https://i2.wp.com/adveco.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/EU-po...