7 ms·

These aren't even remotely equivalent and you know it. Western governments don't place minders inside Western companies; they don't take stakes in all companies

These aren't even remotely equivalent and you know it. Western governments don't place minders inside Western companies; they don't take stakes in all companies to exert control; they don't have social scores that are contingent upon your speech about the government; they don't ban encrypted communications; they don't have great firewalls; they can't easily detain you arbitrarily; they don't strip control of IP and transfer it to local competitors; there is a much higher degree of rule of law... Just because the US et al aren't perfect (and they certainly aren't) doesn't mean the behavior in China is equivalent to what is going on in the west.

akjsdhfkjhask 7y ago
Western political culture feels like a softer, distributed version of the social credit score. How large of a distribution of opinions are you allowed to hold while keeping a job in the tech sector? We know from the examples of political firings that the range is not infinite. And people have gotten "cancelled" from private communications being made public on more than one occasion. Because it's a volunteer, private process and not the government doing it, we still call it "freedom" but it really doesn't feel like an open society anymore. But I do acknowledge that we still have it way better in the West than they do in China (for now).
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  A vast majority of opinions are allowed. Religious, atheist. hate the govt, love the govt. In the 50 dev startup I was working in we had the conservative guy (vp of engr) who was a republican who kept trying to defend trump. We had another guy on the other side who didn't trust the govt and didn't want to go through security at the airport. And all varieties in between. What's not allowed? outright misogyny, outright expressed racism. Russians and Chinese citizens in my company, along with us citizens, europeans. These aren't exactly outliers. The tech world has been this tolerant over my 30 years of working. It's only gotten more tolerant over time. There's a hell of a lot less acceptance of sexist crap though - hard to argue against that change.
Bud 7y ago
Well, actually, AG Barr is actively trying to get rid of encrypted communications, and social scores are just as possible to implement in the US as in China, and indeed, we already know that a form of such scoring has already been applied to those thought to perhaps be "terrorists". So although China is not equivalent to the US at this time, we don't exactly have much claim to the moral high ground, either, nor any right to get cocky about it.
- kortilla 7y ago
  > AG Barr is actively trying to get rid of encrypted communications One AG trying != it happened. > and social scores are just as possible to implement in the US as in China Not under the current laws, no. > we already know that a form of such scoring has already been applied to those thought to perhaps be "terrorists". No, there is no “terrorist” score that comes up based on posting tweets about how much you hate the US government when you go to apply for a job. In fact, it would probably be worse for your job prospects in the tech industry if you had public posts supporting the current admin.
  - monocasa 7y ago
    > Not under the current laws, no. Which laws forbid the construction of a US social credit score?
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
    I just wanted to point out that it is not just Barr. Various LEOs pine for a way to get a legal way to just 'press a button to decrypt'. Comey advocated for it. So did Holder. So yeah, it did not happen yet, but given the steady push, eventually, it will. It is only a matter of time. As to the terrorist score, you are right. That would be too simple to target. Instead, we have amalgam of various private entities collecting information and selling it to highest bidder. At best, the score is distributed.
  - MaxBarraclough 7y ago
    > there is no “terrorist” score that comes up based on posting tweets about how much you hate the US government when you go to apply for a job Indeed. The closest you get is the No Fly List.
rjf72 7y ago
What do you think about things such as room 641A [1]? In short it is one tiny part of the NSA - an NSA office inside of an AT&T building that only NSA "minders" have access to (funny how terminology has such powerful connotations isn't it?), and is used for hoovering up all information which is then processed and used as part of our surveillance state. As for arbitrary detention, how about the National Defense Authorization Act (2012) Section 1021 [2]? The language is a mixture of strong and weak. What I mean is that it says, for instance, one can be detained for providing direct support of a specific terrorist group, but it also includes anybody engaging in a "belligerent act" against the United States as similarly sufficient grounds for arbitrary detention or transferal to the custody or control of any other nations. This remains one of the loopholes for 'we don't torture' - we just transfer to countries that do. When Obama signed this bill into law he openly acknowledged this, as well as the rather extreme constitutional conflicts, and simply claimed his administration would "interpret" the law in a way that would avoid a constitutional conflict. [3] Whether that was true or not is anybody's guess. In any case 'the law's still here, he's all gone' (in my best Springsteen impersonation.) [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2012#Detention_without_trial:_Section_1021 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization... [3] - https://www.ajc.com/blog/jamie-dupree/obama-defense-bill-signing-statement/a2APzH5bJy5Asr5KDZSLII/ https://www.ajc.com/blog/jamie-dupree/obama-defense-bill-sig...
- wbl 7y ago
  Beligerant act means act of war.

akjsdhfkjhask 7y ago

Western political culture feels like a softer, distributed version of the social credit score. How large of a distribution of opinions are you allowed to hold while keeping a job in the tech sector? We know from the examples of political firings that the range is not infinite. And people have gotten "cancelled" from private communications being made public on more than one occasion. Because it's a volunteer, private process and not the government doing it, we still call it "freedom" but it really doesn't feel like an open society anymore. But I do acknowledge that we still have it way better in the West than they do in China (for now).

NotSammyHagar 7y ago
A vast majority of opinions are allowed. Religious, atheist. hate the govt, love the govt. In the 50 dev startup I was working in we had the conservative guy (vp of engr) who was a republican who kept trying to defend trump. We had another guy on the other side who didn't trust the govt and didn't want to go through security at the airport. And all varieties in between. What's not allowed? outright misogyny, outright expressed racism. Russians and Chinese citizens in my company, along with us citizens, europeans. These aren't exactly outliers. The tech world has been this tolerant over my 30 years of working. It's only gotten more tolerant over time. There's a hell of a lot less acceptance of sexist crap though - hard to argue against that change.

Bud 7y ago

Well, actually, AG Barr is actively trying to get rid of encrypted communications, and social scores are just as possible to implement in the US as in China, and indeed, we already know that a form of such scoring has already been applied to those thought to perhaps be "terrorists". So although China is not equivalent to the US at this time, we don't exactly have much claim to the moral high ground, either, nor any right to get cocky about it.

kortilla 7y ago
> AG Barr is actively trying to get rid of encrypted communications One AG trying != it happened. > and social scores are just as possible to implement in the US as in China Not under the current laws, no. > we already know that a form of such scoring has already been applied to those thought to perhaps be "terrorists". No, there is no “terrorist” score that comes up based on posting tweets about how much you hate the US government when you go to apply for a job. In fact, it would probably be worse for your job prospects in the tech industry if you had public posts supporting the current admin.
- monocasa 7y ago
  > Not under the current laws, no. Which laws forbid the construction of a US social credit score?
- A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
  I just wanted to point out that it is not just Barr. Various LEOs pine for a way to get a legal way to just 'press a button to decrypt'. Comey advocated for it. So did Holder. So yeah, it did not happen yet, but given the steady push, eventually, it will. It is only a matter of time. As to the terrorist score, you are right. That would be too simple to target. Instead, we have amalgam of various private entities collecting information and selling it to highest bidder. At best, the score is distributed.
- MaxBarraclough 7y ago
  > there is no “terrorist” score that comes up based on posting tweets about how much you hate the US government when you go to apply for a job Indeed. The closest you get is the No Fly List.

rjf72 7y ago

What do you think about things such as room 641A [1]? In short it is one tiny part of the NSA - an NSA office inside of an AT&T building that only NSA "minders" have access to (funny how terminology has such powerful connotations isn't it?), and is used for hoovering up all information which is then processed and used as part of our surveillance state. As for arbitrary detention, how about the National Defense Authorization Act (2012) Section 1021 [2]? The language is a mixture of strong and weak. What I mean is that it says, for instance, one can be detained for providing direct support of a specific terrorist group, but it also includes anybody engaging in a "belligerent act" against the United States as similarly sufficient grounds for arbitrary detention or transferal to the custody or control of any other nations. This remains one of the loopholes for 'we don't torture' - we just transfer to countries that do. When Obama signed this bill into law he openly acknowledged this, as well as the rather extreme constitutional conflicts, and simply claimed his administration would "interpret" the law in a way that would avoid a constitutional conflict. [3] Whether that was true or not is anybody's guess. In any case 'the law's still here, he's all gone' (in my best Springsteen impersonation.) [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2012#Detention_without_trial:_Section_1021 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization... [3] - https://www.ajc.com/blog/jamie-dupree/obama-defense-bill-signing-statement/a2APzH5bJy5Asr5KDZSLII/ https://www.ajc.com/blog/jamie-dupree/obama-defense-bill-sig...

wbl 7y ago
Beligerant act means act of war.