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But it makes sense to ask that question! If I can rule myself on the sole basis of self-determination, it's turtles all the way down. Can Val d'Aran[1] secede f

But it makes sense to ask that question! If I can rule myself on the sole basis of self-determination, it's turtles all the way down. Can Val d'Aran[1] secede from a seceded Catalonia? Can I just ignore the rules of the country I live in on the sole basis of "a group of people sharing an identity" being people that are me? The argument is worth having, because trying to secede part of a country unilaterally by "legal" means gets down to this absurdities. One question that someone who wants to create a new country out of another, to put it that way, must ask should be "what can I give in return?" If this is going to become a negotation, hopefully, then both parties must understand that there has to be compromises, and have to find common ground. Not just "this is my right because I say so", nor "this can't be because I say so". Platitudes on liberty and justice and words that essential mean nothing lead us nowhere. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_d%27Aran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_d%27Aran

MrBuddyCasino 7y ago
What you are doing is a form of Reductio ad absurdum. You have to assume that people have their best interest in mind. They will refrain from forming states that are too small to exist, and apart from that this is not even a remotely realistic scenario. In fact, mistrust that people can decide things for themselves and that localism leads to the best outcome for them is the hallmark of centralism and bureaucrats. Things we don't need more of.
- ohduran 7y ago
  I know! Because it is absurd to think that we can gerrymander who gets to decide what, which is what essentially what the regional government of Catalonia is scheming to do. The issue isn't simple and I'm positive that this has nothing to do with "human rights" or "democracy" or else. It's much, much more complex than that.
  - MrBuddyCasino 7y ago
    It has everything to do with "human rights" and "democracy"! No one said its simple, but a generic „its complex“ is not a proper refutation. What exactly makes this impossible? Countries form along ethnic boundaries when permitted to do so, and it is then that they are most peaceful and stable. Otherwise you will end up with suppressed minorities and ultimately war. Look at what happened upon decolonization and the fall of Yugoslavia. People are more peaceful as neighbors than flat mates.
- natalyarostova 7y ago
  It's not a reduction to the absurd, unless you can make at least a thoughtful argument for why it should apply to groups of some shared attribute, and not to individuals. Which, to be honest, is probably not a terribly hard argument to make.
- lacker 7y ago
  If secession were allowed by any group, i think it would be profitable for single families to secede. Just the money you would save on taxes would be enough for some people to pay lawyers to handle all the government stuff.

MrBuddyCasino 7y ago

What you are doing is a form of Reductio ad absurdum. You have to assume that people have their best interest in mind. They will refrain from forming states that are too small to exist, and apart from that this is not even a remotely realistic scenario. In fact, mistrust that people can decide things for themselves and that localism leads to the best outcome for them is the hallmark of centralism and bureaucrats. Things we don't need more of.

ohduran 7y ago
I know! Because it is absurd to think that we can gerrymander who gets to decide what, which is what essentially what the regional government of Catalonia is scheming to do. The issue isn't simple and I'm positive that this has nothing to do with "human rights" or "democracy" or else. It's much, much more complex than that.
- MrBuddyCasino 7y ago
  It has everything to do with "human rights" and "democracy"! No one said its simple, but a generic „its complex“ is not a proper refutation. What exactly makes this impossible? Countries form along ethnic boundaries when permitted to do so, and it is then that they are most peaceful and stable. Otherwise you will end up with suppressed minorities and ultimately war. Look at what happened upon decolonization and the fall of Yugoslavia. People are more peaceful as neighbors than flat mates.
natalyarostova 7y ago
It's not a reduction to the absurd, unless you can make at least a thoughtful argument for why it should apply to groups of some shared attribute, and not to individuals. Which, to be honest, is probably not a terribly hard argument to make.
lacker 7y ago
If secession were allowed by any group, i think it would be profitable for single families to secede. Just the money you would save on taxes would be enough for some people to pay lawyers to handle all the government stuff.