4 ms·

Let me get this straight, the choice is between: a) Take the one job you've been offered right now, in your location, doing evil things b) You and your extend

Let me get this straight, the choice is between: a) Take the one job you've been offered right now, in your location, doing evil things b) You and your extended family starve and die Sorry, I'm just not buying it. What actually happens is that people decide that it's convenient to ignore the moral issues for a bit more comfort; basically, they "don't care". There does exist some vanishingly small fraction of people on the boundary of homelessness for which they literally have to do everything to survive. I don't believe that this is a large group in Germany and I doubt anyone intelligent and healthy enough to be a professional software developer is in that group. If you want to maximize earnings, go for it. You're only lying to yourself if you pretend it's the only option, though.

RHSeeger 7y ago
I think you're making this a little more black and white than it really is. How about a) Take the one job you've been offered right now, in your location, doing evil things b) fail to cover your mortgage payment this month and your house is foreclosed on. That choice is a lot more likely than just "you die". And the choice between bending your morals and losing your house is still a hard one. _(I don't know how mortgages and foreclosures and the like work in Germany, I'm just giving an example that I'm familiar with)_
- esotericn 7y ago
  So don't take out a mortgage that you can't afford to pay off. It has the potential to make you a slave, as you illustrate in your example. These things don't just happen. If you stand up for what you believe in then perhaps you get fewer toys. It is how it is. I'd rather be poor and stand up for what I believe in than rich and a dickhead. YMMV. The fact that someone has sunk costs does not give them a pass.
  - RHSeeger 7y ago
    > So don't take out a mortgage that you can't afford to pay off. Are you implying that you shouldn't take out a mortgage that you can't pay off without a job? That makes no sense at all. I'll admit you shouldn't take out a mortgage that you will default on if you're out of work for 1 month, but plenty of people wind up out of work for longer periods of time.
    - esotericn 7y ago
      I'm saying that you should aim to not get caught up in a lifestyle in which you significantly increase the chance that you will feel forced to do bad things in the future to maintain it. I won't give hard figures because really this mortgage example is just one of many. It's a basic principles thing. Poor people living hand to mouth have no choice. A qualified software developer really does. If you mortgage yourself to the hilt and have two kids you can barely afford, then you might well say "oh, my responsibility is towards my family now". Some people respect that. I think it's bullshit. Anyone can increase their lifestyle to meet their income, pile up debts and then claim they just have to do whatever bossman says because otherwise it'll all unravel.
      - RHSeeger 7y ago
        > Anyone can increase their lifestyle to meet their income, pile up debts and then claim they just have to do whatever bossman says because otherwise it'll all unravel. And anyone can go from doing well to living in their car. When I was younger, I was doing well for myself. I wasn't in debt, I rented (no mortgage), happily newly married. And then the economy dropped out from under me and I lost everything. My job, all my savings, etc. We had less than a month of (cheap) rent left in the bank. Eventually, my wife and I had to move so she could take a job further away. She was still in grad school and had to travel 90 minutes each way to meet with people at the school. That was because I couldn't find a job that would support us (after over a year of looking). We didn't have to compromise our morals, but we did have to make a decision that sucked for us. Because shitty things happen. My family and I are back in a good place now. But I recognize that somethings things fall apart no matter how well you plan, and I don't judge people based on the decisions that felt they had to make at such times. I may disagree with their decisions, but I don't believe they are bad people because of them. If you get a chance, watch The Wave. It's a good example of how sometimes even normal "not bad" people can wind up making bad decisions.
        esotericn 7y ago
        Sure. I think we mostly see eye to eye on this FWIW. I'm glad you found your way through what sounds like a tough situation.
  - harimau777 7y ago
    I don't know if its the same in Germany, but in America very few people can afford to buy a home with cash.
dahart 7y ago
That’s a very high horse you’re riding. Everybody is looking the other way to some extent, there aren’t a lot of companies who live entirely on a moral high ground. Facebook, Microsoft, and Google have all done shady things here in the US and internationally, and they still have a lot of employees. Being in tech at all is being a willing participating in your economy in a way that is disenfranchising the poor, nearly everyone globally is conveniently ignoring that. Reflect on your own choices and see if there aren’t in actuality a few things you’re conveniently ignoring.
- esotericn 7y ago
  The perfect is the enemy of the good. I draw my line somewhere, so does everyone. The choice is not between wanky surveillance defence jobs and going full hippie and living in the forest. To address the ad hominem: my personal attitude is to use the money I get from software dev for philanthropy. We earn a lot and have a duty to help the world. Noblesse oblige at a smaller scale. I don't work at FANG because I think advertising is evil. This is a fairly common viewpoint on HN and hardly unique.
  - dahart 7y ago
    I think that’s all very commendable of you. But what is the choice, then? And if there’s a line, then obviously there will be legitimate variation in that line from person to person. If there’s a line at all, it means the bar for passing judgement on others has to be very high and extremely clear cut. And it’s rarely so clear cut that passing judgement is a good idea. Most people are just trying to get by and feed their families. For example, all companies advertise, so not working for a FAANG company doesn’t really escape that one. Paying for advertising is just as bad as taking money for advertising. Paying is what actually perpetuates the system. Total aside, but only two of those companies are primarily driven by ad revenue, Apple, Netflix, and Amazon all make money from products.
    - esotericn 7y ago
      Let's say that the lower bound is "working for a spyware company". I get what you're saying but I think you're just playing devil's advocate. Yeah, I actually do personally struggle with this. The vast majority of companies do, indeed, sell and produce shit we don't need, often to the detriment of society at large (they may temporarily benefit individuals). I am concerned with the climate too. I consume products that have embodied CO2 emissions. Because it's literally impossible to not do so in the modern world. That doesn't mean just throwing my hands up and saying "lol fuck it, there is no moral high ground" and buying a Hummer, y'know? I am free to pass judgement on people who do bad things, and I will continue to do so. I expect people to do the same of me. This is the process by which we evolve as a race. It's big girl time now, there are 7 billion of us and we've collectively attained demi-god status in terms of our ability to affect the fabric of the world around us. We _need_ to learn a way to put the collective before the individual or we are going to comprehensively fuck ourselves.

RHSeeger 7y ago

I think you're making this a little more black and white than it really is. How about a) Take the one job you've been offered right now, in your location, doing evil things b) fail to cover your mortgage payment this month and your house is foreclosed on. That choice is a lot more likely than just "you die". And the choice between bending your morals and losing your house is still a hard one. _(I don't know how mortgages and foreclosures and the like work in Germany, I'm just giving an example that I'm familiar with)_

esotericn 7y ago
So don't take out a mortgage that you can't afford to pay off. It has the potential to make you a slave, as you illustrate in your example. These things don't just happen. If you stand up for what you believe in then perhaps you get fewer toys. It is how it is. I'd rather be poor and stand up for what I believe in than rich and a dickhead. YMMV. The fact that someone has sunk costs does not give them a pass.
- RHSeeger 7y ago
  > So don't take out a mortgage that you can't afford to pay off. Are you implying that you shouldn't take out a mortgage that you can't pay off without a job? That makes no sense at all. I'll admit you shouldn't take out a mortgage that you will default on if you're out of work for 1 month, but plenty of people wind up out of work for longer periods of time.
  - esotericn 7y ago
    I'm saying that you should aim to not get caught up in a lifestyle in which you significantly increase the chance that you will feel forced to do bad things in the future to maintain it. I won't give hard figures because really this mortgage example is just one of many. It's a basic principles thing. Poor people living hand to mouth have no choice. A qualified software developer really does. If you mortgage yourself to the hilt and have two kids you can barely afford, then you might well say "oh, my responsibility is towards my family now". Some people respect that. I think it's bullshit. Anyone can increase their lifestyle to meet their income, pile up debts and then claim they just have to do whatever bossman says because otherwise it'll all unravel.
    - RHSeeger 7y ago
      > Anyone can increase their lifestyle to meet their income, pile up debts and then claim they just have to do whatever bossman says because otherwise it'll all unravel. And anyone can go from doing well to living in their car. When I was younger, I was doing well for myself. I wasn't in debt, I rented (no mortgage), happily newly married. And then the economy dropped out from under me and I lost everything. My job, all my savings, etc. We had less than a month of (cheap) rent left in the bank. Eventually, my wife and I had to move so she could take a job further away. She was still in grad school and had to travel 90 minutes each way to meet with people at the school. That was because I couldn't find a job that would support us (after over a year of looking). We didn't have to compromise our morals, but we did have to make a decision that sucked for us. Because shitty things happen. My family and I are back in a good place now. But I recognize that somethings things fall apart no matter how well you plan, and I don't judge people based on the decisions that felt they had to make at such times. I may disagree with their decisions, but I don't believe they are bad people because of them. If you get a chance, watch The Wave. It's a good example of how sometimes even normal "not bad" people can wind up making bad decisions.
      - esotericn 7y ago
        Sure. I think we mostly see eye to eye on this FWIW. I'm glad you found your way through what sounds like a tough situation.
- harimau777 7y ago
  I don't know if its the same in Germany, but in America very few people can afford to buy a home with cash.

dahart 7y ago

That’s a very high horse you’re riding. Everybody is looking the other way to some extent, there aren’t a lot of companies who live entirely on a moral high ground. Facebook, Microsoft, and Google have all done shady things here in the US and internationally, and they still have a lot of employees. Being in tech at all is being a willing participating in your economy in a way that is disenfranchising the poor, nearly everyone globally is conveniently ignoring that. Reflect on your own choices and see if there aren’t in actuality a few things you’re conveniently ignoring.

esotericn 7y ago
The perfect is the enemy of the good. I draw my line somewhere, so does everyone. The choice is not between wanky surveillance defence jobs and going full hippie and living in the forest. To address the ad hominem: my personal attitude is to use the money I get from software dev for philanthropy. We earn a lot and have a duty to help the world. Noblesse oblige at a smaller scale. I don't work at FANG because I think advertising is evil. This is a fairly common viewpoint on HN and hardly unique.
- dahart 7y ago
  I think that’s all very commendable of you. But what is the choice, then? And if there’s a line, then obviously there will be legitimate variation in that line from person to person. If there’s a line at all, it means the bar for passing judgement on others has to be very high and extremely clear cut. And it’s rarely so clear cut that passing judgement is a good idea. Most people are just trying to get by and feed their families. For example, all companies advertise, so not working for a FAANG company doesn’t really escape that one. Paying for advertising is just as bad as taking money for advertising. Paying is what actually perpetuates the system. Total aside, but only two of those companies are primarily driven by ad revenue, Apple, Netflix, and Amazon all make money from products.
  - esotericn 7y ago
    Let's say that the lower bound is "working for a spyware company". I get what you're saying but I think you're just playing devil's advocate. Yeah, I actually do personally struggle with this. The vast majority of companies do, indeed, sell and produce shit we don't need, often to the detriment of society at large (they may temporarily benefit individuals). I am concerned with the climate too. I consume products that have embodied CO2 emissions. Because it's literally impossible to not do so in the modern world. That doesn't mean just throwing my hands up and saying "lol fuck it, there is no moral high ground" and buying a Hummer, y'know? I am free to pass judgement on people who do bad things, and I will continue to do so. I expect people to do the same of me. This is the process by which we evolve as a race. It's big girl time now, there are 7 billion of us and we've collectively attained demi-god status in terms of our ability to affect the fabric of the world around us. We _need_ to learn a way to put the collective before the individual or we are going to comprehensively fuck ourselves.