6 ms·

I'm quite sure the phrase or idiom used by Xi is ”粉身碎骨“, which can be interpreted figuratively or literally. Funny how it reminds me exactly of the protesters

by lgvln 7y ago

I'm quite sure the phrase or idiom used by Xi is ”粉身碎骨“, which can be interpreted figuratively or literally. Funny how it reminds me exactly of the protesters crushed by the tanks at the Tiananmian Incident.

lebenlechzer 7y ago
Do you happen to have a source for what Xi said in Chinese?
- dirtyid 7y ago
  “任何人企图在中国任何地区搞分裂，结果只能是粉身碎骨；任何支持分裂中国的外部势力只能被中国人民视为痴心妄想” You can copy and paste in Google to find transcript from Chinese sources. 粉身碎骨 is an idiom used in a variety of contexts, largely not literally, some different usage: https://www.purpleculture.net/sample-sentences/?word=粉身碎骨 https://www.purpleculture.net/sample-sentences/?word=粉身碎骨 It's generic language for saying "crushed", but western audiences with limited understanding of China will naturally think of tank treads.
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    Are you saying it might only mean figuratively crushed? The quote from the article ("...perish, with their bodies smashed and bones ground to powder") has three separate allusions to death. Are all three of them being misinterpreted?
    - flag23147 7y ago
      Native Mandarin speaker here. All three separate allusions are a single attempt to translate the four-character Chinese idiom of 粉身碎骨, which is a figurative way of saying crushed to death. In this context, the meaning is the attempts to split China will be completely defeated and offenders subject to severe punishment.
      - sgc 7y ago
        Right ... but either Xi is another Trump, or he intentionally chose that idiom knowing full well the undertones were tied to the end results of other very famous past protests. It is hard not to interpret that as a menace of brutality, regardless of whether actual crushing of bones is in the works.
        flag23147 7y ago
        You're right in that there is an undertone of brutality, even as the Mandarin Chinese phrase is used figuratively. But keep in mind that the intended audience is Chinese people. This phrase is very commonly used when talking about Chinese army defending against Japanese invasion during WWII and crushing enemy to death. I feel it is intentional that the government would like its people to consider the protesters as enemies to the Chinese nation.
        PhasmaFelis 7y ago
        You seem to be agreeing that the implication of violence is clear and intentional.
        fsociety 7y ago
        Not really, it's important to understand that directly translating like that loses its meaning. Chinese can tend to be very dramatic.. for example if you are waiting in line at the restaurant an employee may come out and tell you that you are suffering greatly. It sounds dramatic but he is just recognizing that you have been waiting awhile. Taking artistic license over a language you do not understand isn't right.
    - dirtyid 7y ago
      BBC is taking translation liberties, either our of ignorance and deliberate malice. This is unsurprising to anyone familiar with western MSM reporting on Chinese issues. BBC: >"Anyone who attempts to split any region from China will perish, with their bodies smashed and bones ground to powder," Mr Xi said, according to a foreign ministry statement issued on Sunday. What the source (Chinese State Media) linked by BBC in the article translates [1]: >"Those who engage in separatist activities in any part of China will be smashed into pieces, Xi said, adding that external support for separatists will be seen by the Chinese people as delusional." [1] http://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201910/14/WS5da3743da310cf3e3557035c.html http://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201910/14/WS5da3743da310cf... You would have to stretch credulity to interpret this as an enthusiastic call for literal violence. Though it doesn't necessarily preclude violent intervention which is not really news. All options are on the table for HK.
      - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
        > You would have to stretch credulity to interpret this as an enthusiastic call for literal violence. Is it reasonable to assume that violent metaphors are meant to be taken 100% figuratively and not imply actual violence, given that China has been more than happy to employ actual violence against its own citizens before? It feels like nitpicking to say that it's malicious to assume violent intent at all, just because the wording doesn't literally, explicitly call for violence.
        flag23147 7y ago
        Yes, it is very common to use exaggerations in Chinese and when a certain exaggeration is widely accepted, its figurative meaning took over its literal character-by-character meaning. So when the idiom is used, the four characters are interpreted as one word that describes its figurative meaning. Let me give you an example: in ancient Chinese it is a standard greeting to wish the emperor to live ten thousand years, literally. But everyone understands that it just means very long life.
        PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    - mytailorisrich 7y ago
      This is an idiom. It's like if a politician/government member in the UK/US said that the opposition would be crushed. Would anyone focus on whether that was meant literally? I think sometimes Western media try a bit too hard to interpret statements by the Chinese government in the worst and most sensationalist way.
      - phatfish 7y ago
        I don't remember "crushed" being used by politicians to describe "winning" against an opponent very often, at least not since Trump and Johnson (I'm sure they would have no problem with using it). It has a menacing undertone in English. Yes, its used in sport quite often, but in that context it is also aggressive. It's just that in sport it is expected, in politics one used to expect calmer language...
  - throwawy4trueth 7y ago
    Any HNers feel being Cheated after seeing Google translate? I bet not many. The reason is deeply buried inside human nature: We have bias: Lies from good side(Freedom fighters, "Peaceful" protesters, People) are not a problem and even not detected in our brain. Lies from bad side(Politician in Washington, Wall street Banker, Dictators of regimes) are real lies. Note: Modem lies have been evolved from blatant lies which fabric stories from nothing, into a new more effective form that by removing partial context to create deception, lairs can claim innocent after being caught. WMD is an exception which belong to old lies. Most lies (From journalists who promote the war based on their ideologies which is the same as majorities of HNers here who support "peaceful" protester --just-- want freedom.) are never detected. Just like the (modem) misleading news coverages about HongKong.
  - throwaway4truth 7y ago
    Any HNers feel being Cheated after seeing Google translate? I bet not many. The reason is deeply buried inside human nature: We have bias: Lies from good side(Freedom fighters, "Peaceful" protesters, People) are not a problem and even not detected in our brain. Lies from bad side(Politician in Washington, Wall street Banker, Dictators of regimes) are real lies. Note: Modem lies have been evolved from blatant lies which fabric stories from nothing, into a new more effective form that by removing partial context to create deception, lairs can claim innocent after being caught. WMD is an exception which belong to old lies. Most lies (From journalists who promote the war based on their ideologies which is the same as majorities of HNers here who support "peaceful" protester --just-- want freedom.) are never detected. Just like the (modem) misleading news coverages about HongKong.
throwaway_bad 7y ago
I am really disappointed in BBC's reporting here. They chose to interpret a idiom in a literal way just to make a maximally controversial headline. Even in wuxia novels where I see this phrase used the most, the phrase is never used literally (And in those fictional universes turning people into powder is actually possible). If you choose to translate chinese literally you can make anyone sound insane. Focus on the intent. He is very much saying he will destroy those people. But not necessarily by crushing bones.
- sachdevap 7y ago
  Ah, I see. That makes it so much better. I am glad he'll only destroy them without crushing their bones.
  - throwaway_bad 7y ago
    I am not a native english speaker so I don't know if you're trying to take my words literally too. It's just conveying an intensity, not any specific action. Just like how "wiping the floor" with someone doesn't mean you're going to beat someone unconscious and use their body as a literal mop. That would warrant immediately calling the police or justifiable homicide in self-defense. That's obviously an insane way to interpret that phrase but that's what I am seeing here. It's still a menacing threat but no chinese person is interpreting it as tanks being imminent (like how many english speakers would interpret the threat of literal crushed bones). If tanks do roll in, it is an escalation of the current situation but it's nowhere close to what is being said here.
    - shard972 7y ago
      He's using sarcasm to point out destruction is still destruction, whether or not bones are broken.
  - ohnidoertous 7y ago
    Imaging someone translating “United we stand, divided we fall” into “If we don’t work togeter, he’s going to split you into pieces.”

by lgvln 7y ago

lebenlechzer 7y ago

Do you happen to have a source for what Xi said in Chinese?

dirtyid 7y ago
“任何人企图在中国任何地区搞分裂，结果只能是粉身碎骨；任何支持分裂中国的外部势力只能被中国人民视为痴心妄想” You can copy and paste in Google to find transcript from Chinese sources. 粉身碎骨 is an idiom used in a variety of contexts, largely not literally, some different usage: https://www.purpleculture.net/sample-sentences/?word=粉身碎骨 https://www.purpleculture.net/sample-sentences/?word=粉身碎骨 It's generic language for saying "crushed", but western audiences with limited understanding of China will naturally think of tank treads.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  Are you saying it might only mean figuratively crushed? The quote from the article ("...perish, with their bodies smashed and bones ground to powder") has three separate allusions to death. Are all three of them being misinterpreted?
  - flag23147 7y ago
    Native Mandarin speaker here. All three separate allusions are a single attempt to translate the four-character Chinese idiom of 粉身碎骨, which is a figurative way of saying crushed to death. In this context, the meaning is the attempts to split China will be completely defeated and offenders subject to severe punishment.
    - sgc 7y ago
      Right ... but either Xi is another Trump, or he intentionally chose that idiom knowing full well the undertones were tied to the end results of other very famous past protests. It is hard not to interpret that as a menace of brutality, regardless of whether actual crushing of bones is in the works.
      - flag23147 7y ago
        You're right in that there is an undertone of brutality, even as the Mandarin Chinese phrase is used figuratively. But keep in mind that the intended audience is Chinese people. This phrase is very commonly used when talking about Chinese army defending against Japanese invasion during WWII and crushing enemy to death. I feel it is intentional that the government would like its people to consider the protesters as enemies to the Chinese nation.
        PhasmaFelis 7y ago
        You seem to be agreeing that the implication of violence is clear and intentional.
      - fsociety 7y ago
        Not really, it's important to understand that directly translating like that loses its meaning. Chinese can tend to be very dramatic.. for example if you are waiting in line at the restaurant an employee may come out and tell you that you are suffering greatly. It sounds dramatic but he is just recognizing that you have been waiting awhile. Taking artistic license over a language you do not understand isn't right.
  - dirtyid 7y ago
    BBC is taking translation liberties, either our of ignorance and deliberate malice. This is unsurprising to anyone familiar with western MSM reporting on Chinese issues. BBC: >"Anyone who attempts to split any region from China will perish, with their bodies smashed and bones ground to powder," Mr Xi said, according to a foreign ministry statement issued on Sunday. What the source (Chinese State Media) linked by BBC in the article translates [1]: >"Those who engage in separatist activities in any part of China will be smashed into pieces, Xi said, adding that external support for separatists will be seen by the Chinese people as delusional." [1] http://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201910/14/WS5da3743da310cf3e3557035c.html http://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201910/14/WS5da3743da310cf... You would have to stretch credulity to interpret this as an enthusiastic call for literal violence. Though it doesn't necessarily preclude violent intervention which is not really news. All options are on the table for HK.
    - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
      > You would have to stretch credulity to interpret this as an enthusiastic call for literal violence. Is it reasonable to assume that violent metaphors are meant to be taken 100% figuratively and not imply actual violence, given that China has been more than happy to employ actual violence against its own citizens before? It feels like nitpicking to say that it's malicious to assume violent intent at all, just because the wording doesn't literally, explicitly call for violence.
      - flag23147 7y ago
        Yes, it is very common to use exaggerations in Chinese and when a certain exaggeration is widely accepted, its figurative meaning took over its literal character-by-character meaning. So when the idiom is used, the four characters are interpreted as one word that describes its figurative meaning. Let me give you an example: in ancient Chinese it is a standard greeting to wish the emperor to live ten thousand years, literally. But everyone understands that it just means very long life.
        PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    This is an idiom. It's like if a politician/government member in the UK/US said that the opposition would be crushed. Would anyone focus on whether that was meant literally? I think sometimes Western media try a bit too hard to interpret statements by the Chinese government in the worst and most sensationalist way.
    - phatfish 7y ago
      I don't remember "crushed" being used by politicians to describe "winning" against an opponent very often, at least not since Trump and Johnson (I'm sure they would have no problem with using it). It has a menacing undertone in English. Yes, its used in sport quite often, but in that context it is also aggressive. It's just that in sport it is expected, in politics one used to expect calmer language...
- throwawy4trueth 7y ago
  Any HNers feel being Cheated after seeing Google translate? I bet not many. The reason is deeply buried inside human nature: We have bias: Lies from good side(Freedom fighters, "Peaceful" protesters, People) are not a problem and even not detected in our brain. Lies from bad side(Politician in Washington, Wall street Banker, Dictators of regimes) are real lies. Note: Modem lies have been evolved from blatant lies which fabric stories from nothing, into a new more effective form that by removing partial context to create deception, lairs can claim innocent after being caught. WMD is an exception which belong to old lies. Most lies (From journalists who promote the war based on their ideologies which is the same as majorities of HNers here who support "peaceful" protester --just-- want freedom.) are never detected. Just like the (modem) misleading news coverages about HongKong.
- throwaway4truth 7y ago
  Any HNers feel being Cheated after seeing Google translate? I bet not many. The reason is deeply buried inside human nature: We have bias: Lies from good side(Freedom fighters, "Peaceful" protesters, People) are not a problem and even not detected in our brain. Lies from bad side(Politician in Washington, Wall street Banker, Dictators of regimes) are real lies. Note: Modem lies have been evolved from blatant lies which fabric stories from nothing, into a new more effective form that by removing partial context to create deception, lairs can claim innocent after being caught. WMD is an exception which belong to old lies. Most lies (From journalists who promote the war based on their ideologies which is the same as majorities of HNers here who support "peaceful" protester --just-- want freedom.) are never detected. Just like the (modem) misleading news coverages about HongKong.

throwaway_bad 7y ago

I am really disappointed in BBC's reporting here. They chose to interpret a idiom in a literal way just to make a maximally controversial headline. Even in wuxia novels where I see this phrase used the most, the phrase is never used literally (And in those fictional universes turning people into powder is actually possible). If you choose to translate chinese literally you can make anyone sound insane. Focus on the intent. He is very much saying he will destroy those people. But not necessarily by crushing bones.

sachdevap 7y ago
Ah, I see. That makes it so much better. I am glad he'll only destroy them without crushing their bones.
- throwaway_bad 7y ago
  I am not a native english speaker so I don't know if you're trying to take my words literally too. It's just conveying an intensity, not any specific action. Just like how "wiping the floor" with someone doesn't mean you're going to beat someone unconscious and use their body as a literal mop. That would warrant immediately calling the police or justifiable homicide in self-defense. That's obviously an insane way to interpret that phrase but that's what I am seeing here. It's still a menacing threat but no chinese person is interpreting it as tanks being imminent (like how many english speakers would interpret the threat of literal crushed bones). If tanks do roll in, it is an escalation of the current situation but it's nowhere close to what is being said here.
  - shard972 7y ago
    He's using sarcasm to point out destruction is still destruction, whether or not bones are broken.
- ohnidoertous 7y ago
  Imaging someone translating “United we stand, divided we fall” into “If we don’t work togeter, he’s going to split you into pieces.”