4 ms·

>separate unilaterally The whole US was founded on the idea of a right to self-determination. Without unilateral separation, it would still be part of England.

oliverx0 7y ago
Spain is not a federal country. Furthermore, this is closer to NYC trying to separate from New York State.
- logicchains 7y ago
  England wasn't a federation when America seceded either. The idea of "rights" (or at least the idea the American founders had in mind) is that they're moral concepts independent of whatever the legal system grants.
  - oliverx0 7y ago
    America had been taken over by the British. You cannot extrapolate that to every other country. That is certainly not the history of Catalonia.
    - logicchains 7y ago
      The America that was taken over by the British (native Americans) weren't the ones seceeding. The ones seceeding were the descendants of British settlers/conquerors. Fun fact: British America was around 200 years old when it gained independence. Catalonia has been part of Spain (as opposed to an independent principality) for around 300 years.
      - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
        Were it not for the utterly ill-thought heavy handed actions of the East India company, governor and Lord North, the secession wasn't even wanted. They just wanted better representation within. Poor handling, and particularly heavy handed handling, turned those moderates with a valid grievance into revolutionaries, and secessionists. The East India company was trying to screw over both Britain and the American colonies in equal measure. There probably is a modern lesson in there, which is what results from overly draconian response, and something something overly powerful corporations.
      - harperlee 7y ago
        And beforehand was part of Aragon. The independence of Catalonia is mythical.
      - pvaldes 7y ago
        > Catalonia has been part of Spain for around 300 years. I bet that this land didn't arrived in a ship and was in the same place for a few millions of years at least. Spain has more than 300 years of history.
        drKarl 7y ago
        Sure, iberians, carthaginesians, fenicians, greek, romans, goths, arabs... but until the XV century it was several independent kingdoms, most important one Aragon and Castilla. So Spain as it is now is relatively recent. Also Portugal belonged to the same Kingdom for a while.
  - harperlee 7y ago
    Sure, and they had to bring about a civil war to secede, because it was illegal. That also happened some centuries ago, what was politically acceptable or moral was quite different then. I’d like to think that we now have the political maturity to do this slowly, legally and peacefully if it needs to happen at all.
    - beerandt 7y ago
      I think it's beneficial to see it as: secession (in the US) became definitively illegal because of the Civil War. It was specifically left out of the Constitution, for a few complex reasons, but from a de facto / de jure perspective, was ambiguous at best, until decided by war.
thawaway1837 7y ago
And if the revolutionary war had been lost, all those founding fathers would have found their heads separated from their torsos. And it would have been the legally correct thing to do. That’s the thing with revolutions. They are only ok if they work.
- descala 7y ago
  Ergo, if you want something "not yet legal", you need violence and be sure to win. Really sad.
samuel 7y ago
Yet the US itself doesn't allow secession, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_U.S._state_secession_petitions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_U.S._state_secession_peti...
wbronitsky 7y ago
And yet, the only time any states seceded from the United States, the US declared war on them to bring them back into the Union, then went on to win that war and brought the states back into the Union.
pvaldes 7y ago
Not to mention killing a lot of people that had arrived first. It seems that the holy right of self-determination does not apply if you are a native indian for some reason. Is even more strange if we think that indians comprised once the big majority of people living in that territory. This shiny right does not apply also if you belong in the majority comprised by non-nationalist people living in Cataluña. Is strange that people so democratic and pacific didn't noticed that other people has rights also.

oliverx0 7y ago

Spain is not a federal country. Furthermore, this is closer to NYC trying to separate from New York State.

logicchains 7y ago
England wasn't a federation when America seceded either. The idea of "rights" (or at least the idea the American founders had in mind) is that they're moral concepts independent of whatever the legal system grants.
- oliverx0 7y ago
  America had been taken over by the British. You cannot extrapolate that to every other country. That is certainly not the history of Catalonia.
  - logicchains 7y ago
    The America that was taken over by the British (native Americans) weren't the ones seceeding. The ones seceeding were the descendants of British settlers/conquerors. Fun fact: British America was around 200 years old when it gained independence. Catalonia has been part of Spain (as opposed to an independent principality) for around 300 years.
    - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
      Were it not for the utterly ill-thought heavy handed actions of the East India company, governor and Lord North, the secession wasn't even wanted. They just wanted better representation within. Poor handling, and particularly heavy handed handling, turned those moderates with a valid grievance into revolutionaries, and secessionists. The East India company was trying to screw over both Britain and the American colonies in equal measure. There probably is a modern lesson in there, which is what results from overly draconian response, and something something overly powerful corporations.
    - harperlee 7y ago
      And beforehand was part of Aragon. The independence of Catalonia is mythical.
    - pvaldes 7y ago
      > Catalonia has been part of Spain for around 300 years. I bet that this land didn't arrived in a ship and was in the same place for a few millions of years at least. Spain has more than 300 years of history.
      - drKarl 7y ago
        Sure, iberians, carthaginesians, fenicians, greek, romans, goths, arabs... but until the XV century it was several independent kingdoms, most important one Aragon and Castilla. So Spain as it is now is relatively recent. Also Portugal belonged to the same Kingdom for a while.
- harperlee 7y ago
  Sure, and they had to bring about a civil war to secede, because it was illegal. That also happened some centuries ago, what was politically acceptable or moral was quite different then. I’d like to think that we now have the political maturity to do this slowly, legally and peacefully if it needs to happen at all.
  - beerandt 7y ago
    I think it's beneficial to see it as: secession (in the US) became definitively illegal because of the Civil War. It was specifically left out of the Constitution, for a few complex reasons, but from a de facto / de jure perspective, was ambiguous at best, until decided by war.

thawaway1837 7y ago

And if the revolutionary war had been lost, all those founding fathers would have found their heads separated from their torsos. And it would have been the legally correct thing to do. That’s the thing with revolutions. They are only ok if they work.

descala 7y ago
Ergo, if you want something "not yet legal", you need violence and be sure to win. Really sad.

samuel 7y ago

Yet the US itself doesn't allow secession, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_U.S._state_secession_petitions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_U.S._state_secession_peti...

wbronitsky 7y ago

And yet, the only time any states seceded from the United States, the US declared war on them to bring them back into the Union, then went on to win that war and brought the states back into the Union.

pvaldes 7y ago

Not to mention killing a lot of people that had arrived first. It seems that the holy right of self-determination does not apply if you are a native indian for some reason. Is even more strange if we think that indians comprised once the big majority of people living in that territory. This shiny right does not apply also if you belong in the majority comprised by non-nationalist people living in Cataluña. Is strange that people so democratic and pacific didn't noticed that other people has rights also.