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Was speaking with someone recently about the city feels increasingly empty. There are less store fronts and such for sure, but huge swaths of apartments in NYC

Was speaking with someone recently about the city feels increasingly empty. There are less store fronts and such for sure, but huge swaths of apartments in NYC are investments. They may sit vacant for years on end for some Saudi Arabian wealth fund. There are certainly reports of the dropping population, but in other ways things feel tangible. Living in NYC you come to discover how small of a world it is, disparate friend groups may in turn know each other, how big is this city really? Neighborhoods feel emptier, huge parts of the population of the city are from wealthy Chinese and foreign backgrounds (this is not to disparage them). They don't really work jobs or have traditional careers, but fill the city, making it seem more hollow.

vobios 7y ago
Are there really that many empty apartments? I am sure they exist, but are there really enough of them to make a dent in the market? Having lived in the city for years, I've never actually seen one. I also wonder if you have enough cash to buy and hold NYC apartments, wouldn't your money do better in some sort of a REIT?
- timidiceball 7y ago
  It’s a problem at the high end (which is most of what’s been built lately) https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/13/realestate/new-development-new-york.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/13/realestate/new-developmen...
  - vobios 7y ago
    Does the data presented in that article really suggest that the apartments are actually empty or is it simply that it takes a while to sell out a new development? It's going to take a while to move a hundred units, especially if you want to increase the profits. The StreetEasy report the article is inspired by actually shows that in 2019 there were more condos sold than completed.
- corporateslave5 7y ago
  Where do you put 1 trillion dollars when your main goal is to just preserve it or lose just a little?
  - vobios 7y ago
    > just preserve it or lose just a little Housing generally underperforms the overall market.
    - codingslave 7y ago
      Yeah but you cant jam 1 trillion into any asset vehicle at all, and even if you could, you need to diversify. Portfolio theory 101
    - cko 7y ago
      Which market? https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/files/wp2017-25.pdf https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/files/wp2017-25.pdf
  - imgabe 7y ago
    The only people with that problem are running sovereign wealth funds. IMO that should be invested in the infrastructure and social services of your nation to create a more educated and productive populace which will return the investment in the form of taxes.
- CoolGuySteve 7y ago
  If you look at the new residential sky scrapers like 432 Park around 10pm on a weeknight when most people should be home, you'll notice it's mostly dark. These tall expensive condo towers are like totems to the wealthy absentee residents of New York.
  - goldenkey 7y ago
    You might enjoy this series: https://youtu.be/-55jtMMLJxk https://youtu.be/-55jtMMLJxk
  - bilbo0s 7y ago
    Well maybe that's a bit of the problem. People are saying they can't get an apartment in NYC. Which is met by disbelief by people who actually live in NYC. I believe this might be due to the fact that people are really saying that they want a, say, lower Manhattan apartment but can't afford the good ones anywhere. These are probably upper middle class people trying to live a bit outside their means. It's not really that they can't afford NYC, they just don't want to live in Harlem. Or even in Brooklyn, which actually has pretty nice apartments. When I look around Harlem or the Bronx, I don't think, "empty". Not being able to live where the rich people live is not a problem that society should spend much time solving. I'm one of the very comfortable upper middle class. Yet I don't have a Ferrari, nor do I own a condo on Miami Beach. (Or Manhattan for that matter.) That doesn't mean that society has some sort of housing and car imbalance that it needs to address. There may indeed be an imbalance nationally, but NYC is definitely not any kind of example of one.
    - bobbydroptables 7y ago
      NYC is definitely an example of a housing imbalance. It has nothing to do with UMC types not wanting to live in Harlem. It has to do with the fact that prices are ridiculous throughout the city. The quality of building you get for what you pay is way out of whack. The housing stock is old and generally low quality.
      - lotsofpulp 7y ago
gcr 7y ago
That's what squatters' rights are for. Let the apartments go to folks who will use them.
- rmah 7y ago
  There are no "squatters' rights" in the USA. And the majority of Americans find the very concept anathema.
crazygringo 7y ago
Sorry, but I feel like you or your friend must be getting this from the media and not from personal experience. Manhattan is the most populated it's been since 1960. [1] And the idea that "huge swaths" of apartments are "Saudi Arabian" investments is simply ridiculous. Yes, there are some, in a handful of ultra-luxury buildings, that is far less than 1% of buildings. It doesn't change the social fabric of the city at all. And the idea that "huge parts of the population" are "wealthy Chinese and foreign" who "don't really work jobs"? This is so utterly and completely false I can't even imagine how you or your friend would develop this idea. I don't know where you're getting your information from, but it's just 100% not true at all. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_New_York_City#Manhattan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_New_Yor...
- twic 7y ago
  I've heard the same thing said about London. By people with PhDs, no less. It isn't true here any more than it is in New York.
- JDiculous 7y ago
  Why are you dismissing his personal observations with such a condescending attitude? First of all it's a well documented phenomenon that NYC apartments are being bought by wealthy foreigners to invest and/or launder money without actually living there. As a result, these wealthy areas are eerily empty: "In a three-block stretch of Midtown, from East 56th Street to East 59th Street, between Fifth Avenue and Park Avenue, 57 percent, or 285 of 496 apartments, including co-ops and condos, are vacant at least 10 months a year. From East 59th Street to East 63rd Street, 628 of 1,261 homes, or almost 50 percent, are vacant the majority of the time, according to data from the Census Bureau’s 2012 American Community Survey." [1] The increasingly empty storefronts in Manhattan are also well-documented. Anyone who's lived in Manhattan for multiple years has noticed this - commercial venues shutting down, and either remaining vacant or being replaced with Chase bank retail branches or megachains. There are a ton of trust fund kids who don't work, noticeably more compared to any other city I've lived in. Of course it's probably a minority, but doesn't change the reality of it. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/realestate/pieds-terre-owners-dominate-some-new-york-buildings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/realestate/pieds-terre-ow...

vobios 7y ago

Are there really that many empty apartments? I am sure they exist, but are there really enough of them to make a dent in the market? Having lived in the city for years, I've never actually seen one. I also wonder if you have enough cash to buy and hold NYC apartments, wouldn't your money do better in some sort of a REIT?

timidiceball 7y ago
It’s a problem at the high end (which is most of what’s been built lately) https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/13/realestate/new-development-new-york.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/13/realestate/new-developmen...
- vobios 7y ago
  Does the data presented in that article really suggest that the apartments are actually empty or is it simply that it takes a while to sell out a new development? It's going to take a while to move a hundred units, especially if you want to increase the profits. The StreetEasy report the article is inspired by actually shows that in 2019 there were more condos sold than completed.
corporateslave5 7y ago
Where do you put 1 trillion dollars when your main goal is to just preserve it or lose just a little?
- vobios 7y ago
  > just preserve it or lose just a little Housing generally underperforms the overall market.
  - codingslave 7y ago
    Yeah but you cant jam 1 trillion into any asset vehicle at all, and even if you could, you need to diversify. Portfolio theory 101
  - cko 7y ago
    Which market? https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/files/wp2017-25.pdf https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/files/wp2017-25.pdf
- imgabe 7y ago
  The only people with that problem are running sovereign wealth funds. IMO that should be invested in the infrastructure and social services of your nation to create a more educated and productive populace which will return the investment in the form of taxes.
CoolGuySteve 7y ago
If you look at the new residential sky scrapers like 432 Park around 10pm on a weeknight when most people should be home, you'll notice it's mostly dark. These tall expensive condo towers are like totems to the wealthy absentee residents of New York.
- goldenkey 7y ago
  You might enjoy this series: https://youtu.be/-55jtMMLJxk https://youtu.be/-55jtMMLJxk
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  Well maybe that's a bit of the problem. People are saying they can't get an apartment in NYC. Which is met by disbelief by people who actually live in NYC. I believe this might be due to the fact that people are really saying that they want a, say, lower Manhattan apartment but can't afford the good ones anywhere. These are probably upper middle class people trying to live a bit outside their means. It's not really that they can't afford NYC, they just don't want to live in Harlem. Or even in Brooklyn, which actually has pretty nice apartments. When I look around Harlem or the Bronx, I don't think, "empty". Not being able to live where the rich people live is not a problem that society should spend much time solving. I'm one of the very comfortable upper middle class. Yet I don't have a Ferrari, nor do I own a condo on Miami Beach. (Or Manhattan for that matter.) That doesn't mean that society has some sort of housing and car imbalance that it needs to address. There may indeed be an imbalance nationally, but NYC is definitely not any kind of example of one.
  - bobbydroptables 7y ago
    NYC is definitely an example of a housing imbalance. It has nothing to do with UMC types not wanting to live in Harlem. It has to do with the fact that prices are ridiculous throughout the city. The quality of building you get for what you pay is way out of whack. The housing stock is old and generally low quality.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago

gcr 7y ago

That's what squatters' rights are for. Let the apartments go to folks who will use them.

rmah 7y ago
There are no "squatters' rights" in the USA. And the majority of Americans find the very concept anathema.

crazygringo 7y ago

Sorry, but I feel like you or your friend must be getting this from the media and not from personal experience. Manhattan is the most populated it's been since 1960. [1] And the idea that "huge swaths" of apartments are "Saudi Arabian" investments is simply ridiculous. Yes, there are some, in a handful of ultra-luxury buildings, that is far less than 1% of buildings. It doesn't change the social fabric of the city at all. And the idea that "huge parts of the population" are "wealthy Chinese and foreign" who "don't really work jobs"? This is so utterly and completely false I can't even imagine how you or your friend would develop this idea. I don't know where you're getting your information from, but it's just 100% not true at all. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_New_York_City#Manhattan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_New_Yor...

twic 7y ago
I've heard the same thing said about London. By people with PhDs, no less. It isn't true here any more than it is in New York.
JDiculous 7y ago
Why are you dismissing his personal observations with such a condescending attitude? First of all it's a well documented phenomenon that NYC apartments are being bought by wealthy foreigners to invest and/or launder money without actually living there. As a result, these wealthy areas are eerily empty: "In a three-block stretch of Midtown, from East 56th Street to East 59th Street, between Fifth Avenue and Park Avenue, 57 percent, or 285 of 496 apartments, including co-ops and condos, are vacant at least 10 months a year. From East 59th Street to East 63rd Street, 628 of 1,261 homes, or almost 50 percent, are vacant the majority of the time, according to data from the Census Bureau’s 2012 American Community Survey." [1] The increasingly empty storefronts in Manhattan are also well-documented. Anyone who's lived in Manhattan for multiple years has noticed this - commercial venues shutting down, and either remaining vacant or being replaced with Chase bank retail branches or megachains. There are a ton of trust fund kids who don't work, noticeably more compared to any other city I've lived in. Of course it's probably a minority, but doesn't change the reality of it. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/realestate/pieds-terre-owners-dominate-some-new-york-buildings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/realestate/pieds-terre-ow...