5 ms·

Sure, you could buy this kit to replace their "pentalobular" screws with Philips. Or you could just not buy hardware from a company that thinks you're too incom

by ryandvm 16y ago

Sure, you could buy this kit to replace their "pentalobular" screws with Philips. Or you could just not buy hardware from a company that thinks you're too incompetent/untrustworthy to open the device you freaking own.

jorgem 16y ago
That's why it's diabolical!
tptacek 16y ago
You can put value judgements on it like that, or you can express the exact same sentiment without emotion by saying "or, you could just not buy hermetically sealed products if you want to be able to tinker with your hardware", in which case even the Apple advocates will agree with you.
- sudont 16y ago
  Some people actually don't care about this sort of thing. If the the computer is the only point in the workflow, sure it's like being able to open the hood and fix the work truck. It makes sense for a computer programmer to truly own the hardware. If the computer is part of a workflow, it's more like needing to work on the transmission's internals, versus just dropping a new one in. Likewise, hearing people talk about the "right to work on it" seem odd and counterproductive, because it's simply not important. Try telling a painter that he's wrong for not spending all of his free time learning how to fix and maintain a computer used to surf facebook and send an email or two.
- nooneelse 16y ago
  But some kinds of denials between people carry with them such obvious implications of value judgments. Such as "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, because in his heart he dreams himself your master." Some people are similarly wary of any who would deny them access to their own property, reasonably thinking that perhaps such a denier, in their heart, dreams that such property is truly their own.
  - grav1tas 16y ago
    Nice "Sid Meier's: Alpha Centauri" video game quotation. I don't see how "Pravin Lal's" sentiment applies here. Apple is probably just doing this to improve the bottom line on warranties by preventing people who lack the knowhow/desire to open the case of their machines. If you really want to get it, you can still get in, you just have to try a bit harder and think about what it is you're doing and the implications thereof (vis the product's warranty). You definitely have access to your own property, you just have to buy the right tools, which according to other posts, are actually available from other suppliers.
- nkurz 16y ago
  Yes, this is exactly the market that makes sense for Apple. They are tremendous products for people willing to pay a premium not to have to deal with the nuts and bolts and desiring to concentrate only on the task at hand. The astonishing part is that through amazing PR and Marketing that they have also managed to convince self-described 'hackers' (this is ostensibly Hacker News) that Apple makes great products for them as well. It's as if a bunch of car racing enthusiasts were gonzo about a Prius with a welded shut hood! In my experience, while some racing fans are content with keeping the hood shut, most racers are also good mechanics. Are there other examples of experts being so willing to accept that their tools are not customizable? I think of things like low-fi music and the Holga, but even there there is a lot of modding going on. The obvious answer is probably that 'hacker' is an applied rather than base characteristic. Rather, one can be a software hacker without caring at all about the underlying hardware. But I'm dubious: while it's certainly possible to write good software while never looking at the layers below your preferred virtual machine, I have to think that you benefit from knowing how that layer really works. And that one, and that one.
  - sdkmvx 16y ago
    But to know how an amd64-based system works, I don't need to open _this_ laptop (from Apple). I do know how hardware works, and it is important to know how string comparison works and why that would be slow, no matter how far up the abstraction you are. But unless you're a hardware engineer, in which case you have custom hardware anyway, you don't need to open the computer and inspect the data lines from the CPU and RAM. Just know that they're there and how they work. In fact the only time I've ever opened this MacBook was to upgrade the hard drive, which admittedly did require a Torx, but Torx really isn't that uncommon. Plus given the low number of people (and high likelihood that anyone replacing a hard drive will have Torx) needing to replace a hard drive and known resistance to camouts makes Torx a good choice for the tiny screws that hold a computer together.
    - nkurz 16y ago
      You're absolutely right, and yet somehow I just don't want to buy a product that takes that attitude. My disillusion with Macintosh started when I learned that one needed a special 'Mac Cracker' tool to open up a Mac Plus. The easy solution for me is to avoid their products and choose something that doesn't offend my sensibilities. I've repaired a couple Apple products in the last year. I resoldered an IC on a friend's MacBook to get get rid of a constant reboot problem, and swapped out a broken video card from my girlfriend's desktop Mac Pro. Both were reasonably straightforward repairs, although I'm not sure what they'll gain by making it harder. I'm OK with Torx, but don't see the benefit of moving to Pentalobular. But I'm sure I can drill them out if I really need too. :)
tvon 16y ago
Users competent enough to repair an iPhone but not competent enough to open one that is sealed with something other than a phillips head screw?
- zmmmmm 16y ago
  It's not really a matter of competency - when said screw cannot be opened by any available screw driver no amount of "competency" will let you safely open it. Competent and incompetent alike are affected (unless you think manufacturing custom screw driver heads should be a requirement for competency in repairing consumer electronics).

by ryandvm 16y ago

jorgem 16y ago

That's why it's diabolical!

tptacek 16y ago

You can put value judgements on it like that, or you can express the exact same sentiment without emotion by saying "or, you could just not buy hermetically sealed products if you want to be able to tinker with your hardware", in which case even the Apple advocates will agree with you.

sudont 16y ago
Some people actually don't care about this sort of thing. If the the computer is the only point in the workflow, sure it's like being able to open the hood and fix the work truck. It makes sense for a computer programmer to truly own the hardware. If the computer is part of a workflow, it's more like needing to work on the transmission's internals, versus just dropping a new one in. Likewise, hearing people talk about the "right to work on it" seem odd and counterproductive, because it's simply not important. Try telling a painter that he's wrong for not spending all of his free time learning how to fix and maintain a computer used to surf facebook and send an email or two.
nooneelse 16y ago
But some kinds of denials between people carry with them such obvious implications of value judgments. Such as "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, because in his heart he dreams himself your master." Some people are similarly wary of any who would deny them access to their own property, reasonably thinking that perhaps such a denier, in their heart, dreams that such property is truly their own.
- grav1tas 16y ago
  Nice "Sid Meier's: Alpha Centauri" video game quotation. I don't see how "Pravin Lal's" sentiment applies here. Apple is probably just doing this to improve the bottom line on warranties by preventing people who lack the knowhow/desire to open the case of their machines. If you really want to get it, you can still get in, you just have to try a bit harder and think about what it is you're doing and the implications thereof (vis the product's warranty). You definitely have access to your own property, you just have to buy the right tools, which according to other posts, are actually available from other suppliers.
nkurz 16y ago
Yes, this is exactly the market that makes sense for Apple. They are tremendous products for people willing to pay a premium not to have to deal with the nuts and bolts and desiring to concentrate only on the task at hand. The astonishing part is that through amazing PR and Marketing that they have also managed to convince self-described 'hackers' (this is ostensibly Hacker News) that Apple makes great products for them as well. It's as if a bunch of car racing enthusiasts were gonzo about a Prius with a welded shut hood! In my experience, while some racing fans are content with keeping the hood shut, most racers are also good mechanics. Are there other examples of experts being so willing to accept that their tools are not customizable? I think of things like low-fi music and the Holga, but even there there is a lot of modding going on. The obvious answer is probably that 'hacker' is an applied rather than base characteristic. Rather, one can be a software hacker without caring at all about the underlying hardware. But I'm dubious: while it's certainly possible to write good software while never looking at the layers below your preferred virtual machine, I have to think that you benefit from knowing how that layer really works. And that one, and that one.
- sdkmvx 16y ago
  But to know how an amd64-based system works, I don't need to open _this_ laptop (from Apple). I do know how hardware works, and it is important to know how string comparison works and why that would be slow, no matter how far up the abstraction you are. But unless you're a hardware engineer, in which case you have custom hardware anyway, you don't need to open the computer and inspect the data lines from the CPU and RAM. Just know that they're there and how they work. In fact the only time I've ever opened this MacBook was to upgrade the hard drive, which admittedly did require a Torx, but Torx really isn't that uncommon. Plus given the low number of people (and high likelihood that anyone replacing a hard drive will have Torx) needing to replace a hard drive and known resistance to camouts makes Torx a good choice for the tiny screws that hold a computer together.
  - nkurz 16y ago
    You're absolutely right, and yet somehow I just don't want to buy a product that takes that attitude. My disillusion with Macintosh started when I learned that one needed a special 'Mac Cracker' tool to open up a Mac Plus. The easy solution for me is to avoid their products and choose something that doesn't offend my sensibilities. I've repaired a couple Apple products in the last year. I resoldered an IC on a friend's MacBook to get get rid of a constant reboot problem, and swapped out a broken video card from my girlfriend's desktop Mac Pro. Both were reasonably straightforward repairs, although I'm not sure what they'll gain by making it harder. I'm OK with Torx, but don't see the benefit of moving to Pentalobular. But I'm sure I can drill them out if I really need too. :)

tvon 16y ago

Users competent enough to repair an iPhone but not competent enough to open one that is sealed with something other than a phillips head screw?

zmmmmm 16y ago
It's not really a matter of competency - when said screw cannot be opened by any available screw driver no amount of "competency" will let you safely open it. Competent and incompetent alike are affected (unless you think manufacturing custom screw driver heads should be a requirement for competency in repairing consumer electronics).