6 ms·

Easy for who? Amazon knows which seller sent in the inventory for every order, so they know to punish the right seller when a complaint comes in. You are corre

by ikeboy 7y ago

Easy for who? Amazon knows which seller sent in the inventory for every order, so they know to punish the right seller when a complaint comes in. You are correct that customers could themselves choose better sellers, but most customers don't care and prefer cheaper over more reliable. That effect is not enough to help "enormously".

msbarnett 7y ago
> Amazon knows which seller sent in the inventory for every order, so they know to punish the right seller when a complaint comes in. Huuuuge citation needed. It’s precisely because of comingling that they don’t have the ability to do this: they put multiple sellers goods, including their own, in the same storage bins, provided they have the same UPC. By what means do you suggest they can distinguish Seller A’s widget in Bin 37624 from Seller B’s? They do not appear to attach any additional tracking stickers to their goods. And they do not have a formal system for complaining about counterfeit goods. They don’t even offer it as a distinct option on returns — probably quite purposefully. All you can do is request a return for some vaguely-related reason and manually add a note about it being counterfeit. They’re clearly not attempting to automate identification of bad goods, let alone removal of bad actors.
- ikeboy 7y ago
  I link to it every single thread like this, but here goes: https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/external/200141480?language=en-US&ref=mpbc_200243180_cont_200141480 https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/external/200141480?... "For inventory tracked with the manufacturer barcode, each seller’s sourced inventory of the same ASIN is stored separately in our fulfillment centers. We can also track the original seller of each unit." Previous discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20549623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20549623, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13952939 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13952939, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12062856 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12062856 This is the biggest misconception about Amazon I've seen, and has been for years, at least on HN.
  - beerandt 7y ago
    I know they claim that, and it may be their official policy, but it obviously is not working in practice. Either that, or it's become direct fraud in their part. And it may work to benefit Amazon in finding problematic sellers, and it may scare most legit sellers to never supply fake products. But it doesn't seem to do anything to actually benefit sellers or buyers, at this point. For one, I suspect resold returned items to be a major weakness of this policy. Or orders of multiple quantity with different sources, which are picked, boxed, then returned to inventory for whatever reason.
    - ikeboy 7y ago
      You don't see the counterfactual where Amazon didn't enforce much and counterfeiting was much more prevalent. Without knowing how much counterfeiting would take place without enforcement, you can't say enforcement is useless. I see the other side: I was suspended after false counterfeit complaints from tp-link, and was forced to sue them in federal court. In my case, Amazon suspended me despite having provided extensive proof of authenticity, simply because the brand didn't want me to legally resell their product and was willing to lie about it. I agree that returns are a weakness, where counterfeits can enter the supply chain. But returns are a low percentage of sales, and counterfeit returns (fraud) are a low percentage of returns. Seems like a relatively small problem. Multiple quantity from different sellers shouldn't be combined. If they're in the same warehouse they would just ship from the same seller. I don't know for sure how Amazon handles it but again, doesn't seem like a huge problem.
      - beerandt 7y ago
        I agree, we may not know the extent of the problem. But if they are tracking sources as well as they claim to be, the problem wouldn't keep growing like it is. There's a major disconnect somewhere... And you kinda make my point. The practice is for the benefit of Amazon, not us. (It still benefits Amazon to sell fakes already within their inventory.) >Multiple quantity from different sellers shouldn't be combined Yet it's happening. I don't claim to know all the whys, but I've ordered enough to know that it's happening. And a lot.
- mcv 7y ago
  Amazon should known which seller sent in the inventory. That they intentionally choose not to know that, is their own intentional mistake, and their abdication of responsibility that really should be theirs. They intentionally create a confusing situation that enables counterfeiters. They are absolutely, totally responsible for this mess and should have hurried to fix this a long time ago. That they haven't, means they knowingly enable and profit from counterfeiting.
  - ikeboy 7y ago
    As above, they know which seller sent it in and at no point did they "choose not to know". Your entire comment is based on a false premise.
my_first_acct 7y ago
> ...so they know to punish the right seller when a complaint comes in. Since (according to others in this thread) the Amazon "Reason for return" menu does not provide the option "Item is counterfeit", it does not sound like Amazon is very interested in receiving these sorts of complaints. So I have to wonder how interested Amazon is in punishing the sellers of counterfeit items. If you close your ears to bad news, you won't hear any. > You are correct that customers could themselves choose better sellers... That's right. For items where genuineness really matters, I choose the seller "Sold by Walmart" at walmart.com. There are no reliable sellers at amazon.com, not even "Sold by Amazon". Which is a shame. P.S. Reply to msbarnett, since I can't reply directly: Amazon does not literally put all identical items into a single physical bin, so it is at least feasible for them to keep track of which item came from which seller, if they choose to. I recommend that you (and other readers) take a tour of an Amazon fulfillment center: https://www.aboutamazon.com/amazon-fulfillment-center-tours/ https://www.aboutamazon.com/amazon-fulfillment-center-tours/ It's pretty interesting.
- ikeboy 7y ago
  It has "not as described" as an option. You can put in text explaining what wasn't as described: if it has keywords like "counterfeit" or similar, it will go into that seller's CCR (counterfeit complaint rate), and sellers with a bad CCR get suspended.
  - my_first_acct 7y ago
    Good to know. Thanks.
    - ikeboy 7y ago
      The exact thresholds aren't known, but they're pretty low: https://www.awesomedynamic.com/amazon-prime-wardrobe/ https://www.awesomedynamic.com/amazon-prime-wardrobe/ mentions thresholds of 30 PPM (and 500 PPM for just Materially Different Complaint Rate) to get into some seller program. Presumably the threshold rate for suspension is an order of magnitude or so higher than that. 500 PPM would be one complaint every 2,000 orders.

by ikeboy 7y ago

msbarnett 7y ago

> Amazon knows which seller sent in the inventory for every order, so they know to punish the right seller when a complaint comes in. Huuuuge citation needed. It’s precisely because of comingling that they don’t have the ability to do this: they put multiple sellers goods, including their own, in the same storage bins, provided they have the same UPC. By what means do you suggest they can distinguish Seller A’s widget in Bin 37624 from Seller B’s? They do not appear to attach any additional tracking stickers to their goods. And they do not have a formal system for complaining about counterfeit goods. They don’t even offer it as a distinct option on returns — probably quite purposefully. All you can do is request a return for some vaguely-related reason and manually add a note about it being counterfeit. They’re clearly not attempting to automate identification of bad goods, let alone removal of bad actors.

ikeboy 7y ago
I link to it every single thread like this, but here goes: https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/external/200141480?language=en-US&ref=mpbc_200243180_cont_200141480 https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/help/external/200141480?... "For inventory tracked with the manufacturer barcode, each seller’s sourced inventory of the same ASIN is stored separately in our fulfillment centers. We can also track the original seller of each unit." Previous discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20549623 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20549623, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13952939 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13952939, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12062856 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12062856 This is the biggest misconception about Amazon I've seen, and has been for years, at least on HN.
- beerandt 7y ago
  I know they claim that, and it may be their official policy, but it obviously is not working in practice. Either that, or it's become direct fraud in their part. And it may work to benefit Amazon in finding problematic sellers, and it may scare most legit sellers to never supply fake products. But it doesn't seem to do anything to actually benefit sellers or buyers, at this point. For one, I suspect resold returned items to be a major weakness of this policy. Or orders of multiple quantity with different sources, which are picked, boxed, then returned to inventory for whatever reason.
  - ikeboy 7y ago
    You don't see the counterfactual where Amazon didn't enforce much and counterfeiting was much more prevalent. Without knowing how much counterfeiting would take place without enforcement, you can't say enforcement is useless. I see the other side: I was suspended after false counterfeit complaints from tp-link, and was forced to sue them in federal court. In my case, Amazon suspended me despite having provided extensive proof of authenticity, simply because the brand didn't want me to legally resell their product and was willing to lie about it. I agree that returns are a weakness, where counterfeits can enter the supply chain. But returns are a low percentage of sales, and counterfeit returns (fraud) are a low percentage of returns. Seems like a relatively small problem. Multiple quantity from different sellers shouldn't be combined. If they're in the same warehouse they would just ship from the same seller. I don't know for sure how Amazon handles it but again, doesn't seem like a huge problem.
    - beerandt 7y ago
      I agree, we may not know the extent of the problem. But if they are tracking sources as well as they claim to be, the problem wouldn't keep growing like it is. There's a major disconnect somewhere... And you kinda make my point. The practice is for the benefit of Amazon, not us. (It still benefits Amazon to sell fakes already within their inventory.) >Multiple quantity from different sellers shouldn't be combined Yet it's happening. I don't claim to know all the whys, but I've ordered enough to know that it's happening. And a lot.
mcv 7y ago
Amazon should known which seller sent in the inventory. That they intentionally choose not to know that, is their own intentional mistake, and their abdication of responsibility that really should be theirs. They intentionally create a confusing situation that enables counterfeiters. They are absolutely, totally responsible for this mess and should have hurried to fix this a long time ago. That they haven't, means they knowingly enable and profit from counterfeiting.
- ikeboy 7y ago
  As above, they know which seller sent it in and at no point did they "choose not to know". Your entire comment is based on a false premise.

my_first_acct 7y ago

> ...so they know to punish the right seller when a complaint comes in. Since (according to others in this thread) the Amazon "Reason for return" menu does not provide the option "Item is counterfeit", it does not sound like Amazon is very interested in receiving these sorts of complaints. So I have to wonder how interested Amazon is in punishing the sellers of counterfeit items. If you close your ears to bad news, you won't hear any. > You are correct that customers could themselves choose better sellers... That's right. For items where genuineness really matters, I choose the seller "Sold by Walmart" at walmart.com. There are no reliable sellers at amazon.com, not even "Sold by Amazon". Which is a shame. P.S. Reply to msbarnett, since I can't reply directly: Amazon does not literally put all identical items into a single physical bin, so it is at least feasible for them to keep track of which item came from which seller, if they choose to. I recommend that you (and other readers) take a tour of an Amazon fulfillment center: https://www.aboutamazon.com/amazon-fulfillment-center-tours/ https://www.aboutamazon.com/amazon-fulfillment-center-tours/ It's pretty interesting.

ikeboy 7y ago
It has "not as described" as an option. You can put in text explaining what wasn't as described: if it has keywords like "counterfeit" or similar, it will go into that seller's CCR (counterfeit complaint rate), and sellers with a bad CCR get suspended.
- my_first_acct 7y ago
  Good to know. Thanks.
  - ikeboy 7y ago
    The exact thresholds aren't known, but they're pretty low: https://www.awesomedynamic.com/amazon-prime-wardrobe/ https://www.awesomedynamic.com/amazon-prime-wardrobe/ mentions thresholds of 30 PPM (and 500 PPM for just Materially Different Complaint Rate) to get into some seller program. Presumably the threshold rate for suspension is an order of magnitude or so higher than that. 500 PPM would be one complaint every 2,000 orders.