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A question one of you bread fans may be able to answer. My daughter has what we thought was a gluten intolerance, she recently went to Italy though and can eat

A question one of you bread fans may be able to answer. My daughter has what we thought was a gluten intolerance, she recently went to Italy though and can eat their bread and pasta fine. Coming back to Australia, and eating bread here - same reaction, she's found a deli that imports Italian bread and can eat that. I've looked at the ingredients list and nothing leaps out, one thing I was thinking maybe the wheat is different and so the Gluten is a slightly different shape maybe, any of you folk know what the difference could be?

punnerud 7y ago
I read last year that it is not gluten that most people with “gluten allergic” is reacting to, but a protein that normally is found within “gluten”. They are now starting to produce gluten without this protein. Could be that this is the reason. Just like milk-protein and lactose intolerance/allergic is two different things.
- chadcmulligan 7y ago
  maybe, any links? Its puzzling why bread from Italy is OK, maybe they use a different strain of wheat was one thought I had. I've even tried baking my own bread, additive free, but same reaction.
  - punnerud 7y ago
    Found it, was form 2017. It is called Fructan: https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(17)36302-3/pdf https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(17)36302-3/... To make it short: Only 13 of the 59 in the double blind study with gluten allergy was actual allergic to gluten it self. Also relevant to know if you are gluten allergic: “... because a product marketed as “gluten-free” must also be free of rye and barley in addition to wheat, those who must avoid only wheat may be limiting themselves.“ https://acaai.org/allergies/types/food-allergies/types-food-allergy/wheat-gluten-allergy https://acaai.org/allergies/types/food-allergies/types-food-...
    - chadcmulligan 7y ago
      Oh ok, yah FODMAPs was another thing we tried - there's a FODMAP free diet, but didn't seem to help. Thanks anyway. Edit: there's a rye sourdough she can eat as well, which excludes FODMAPS I think.
jamesrom 7y ago
You should do a double-blind experiment. Isolate the human variable first. That said, I would not be surprised if there was something in the way Italian wheat is grown/processed that is the important factor.
- chadcmulligan 7y ago
  Yes, I've never done a true double blind. That said though, she also went to France and Spain, it was only the Italian bread she could eat. The Italians seem very protective about using the ancient grains, so yes there is an effect, but its clearly not gluten. Australia is very keen on using the modern grains with high yield so its probably something else in the grains.
MayeulC 7y ago
Coming from France, finding out that there is added sugar in most products abroad (corn syrup, fructose, lactose, etc), including bread shocked me (I mean, even in mustard... which is alien to me). That may be a lead to follow? Or that may be due to different yeasts? I'd suggest she tries to bake with imported ingredients, then local ones, and mix/match to find the culprit.
viburnum 7y ago
I have comment on this post that might answer your question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21243525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21243525 Basically some whole wheat flour is heavily processed and reconstituted.
- chadcmulligan 7y ago
  wow, thanks, that is disturbing reading. Its probably not a surprise that some of this food would upset someones stomach. Edit: I did try making bread with an organic stone ground flour some years ago though and that didn't help.
ReptileMan 7y ago
FODMAPS - olygoscharids that are very hard to digest. Proper fermentation reduces them. I guess the italian bread is just properly fermented and leavened. Here is fun experiment - try her tolerance towards the simplest no knead bread made at home with long cold proofing. Like 48-72 hours. Or good proper artisanal sourdough - if she can tolerate them better you have a good piece of the puzzle. And pasta gluten is quite different anyway from the bread one. It is made from durum wheat which is very hard and I think its gluten lacked the elasticity of the bread one. Does she likes eats a lot fermented foods - like sourkraut and real yogurt? They have been shown to help with stomach microbiome.
- chadcmulligan 7y ago
  > Does she likes eats a lot fermented foods - like sourkraut and real yogurt? They have been shown to help with stomach microbiome. Sometimes, might be time to investigate these to, thanks Edit: on the sourdough front there is some strange results, I tried an artisanal organic sourdough from a bakery that takes their bread very seriously, and she reacts to that (however, I really like it, so a bit of a bonus for me there :-) ), strangely there is a rye sourdough she gets from the supermarket and she can eat that fine. Its a puzzling set of reactions. Howvever, the good news is its not gluten its something else that can be isolated.
pacifist 7y ago
Try grinding your own flour from organically grown wheat and baking bread with that. I'm guessing she won't have a problem with it since this is essentially what is going on in Italy. They just call it making bread there.
- chadcmulligan 7y ago
  I have tried organic stone ground flour bought from the organic shop, grinding my own might be a bit beyond me, but may be worth investigating.
ip26 7y ago
If you can bake bread with wheat from an Italian grocery store and it doesn't cause her any problems, you could probably then narrow it down to the variety of wheat. There are actually quite a few, and they can be very different. Do run some kind of blind trial though, as another poster mentioned.
- chadcmulligan 7y ago
  yes that seems like the approach to take, much good advice from the HN folk
corey_moncure 7y ago
I am personally invested in this question also. Some have drawn a correlation between the use of organophosphates (one infamous compound in particular) and the rising incidence of celiac and gluten intolerance diagnosis in the USA. It may be something to look into.
chadcmulligan 7y ago
Searching around and ended up here https://natalinaskitchen.com/pizza-flour-00-from-italy-or-canadian-made-flour-whats-the-difference-part-1/ https://natalinaskitchen.com/pizza-flour-00-from-italy-or-ca... someone in the comments has had the same experience: >As an fyi, I have stopped eating Whole grain bread due to Gluten Intolerance symptoms. However Gluten-Free bread for the most part also seems to me, Flavour-free as well! However when I have travelled to Italy/France I have had no symptoms and enjoyed pizzas, pastas and croissants with out problem. I recently picked up two products – one is La Cappicella Pasta, sold through PC which is made in Italy with Durham flour and ACE Bakery’s Non-GMO Baguette….and have had no symptoms or problems. I’ve heard it before that the preservatives and non-clumping additives etc are what can contribute to a lot of GI symptoms and I seem to be experiencing that. So pleased there are some products out there that don’t make those of us with problems like that experience pain when we eat!
sshumaker 7y ago
Glyphosate, perhaps?

punnerud 7y ago

I read last year that it is not gluten that most people with “gluten allergic” is reacting to, but a protein that normally is found within “gluten”. They are now starting to produce gluten without this protein. Could be that this is the reason. Just like milk-protein and lactose intolerance/allergic is two different things.

chadcmulligan 7y ago
maybe, any links? Its puzzling why bread from Italy is OK, maybe they use a different strain of wheat was one thought I had. I've even tried baking my own bread, additive free, but same reaction.
- punnerud 7y ago
  Found it, was form 2017. It is called Fructan: https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(17)36302-3/pdf https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(17)36302-3/... To make it short: Only 13 of the 59 in the double blind study with gluten allergy was actual allergic to gluten it self. Also relevant to know if you are gluten allergic: “... because a product marketed as “gluten-free” must also be free of rye and barley in addition to wheat, those who must avoid only wheat may be limiting themselves.“ https://acaai.org/allergies/types/food-allergies/types-food-allergy/wheat-gluten-allergy https://acaai.org/allergies/types/food-allergies/types-food-...
  - chadcmulligan 7y ago
    Oh ok, yah FODMAPs was another thing we tried - there's a FODMAP free diet, but didn't seem to help. Thanks anyway. Edit: there's a rye sourdough she can eat as well, which excludes FODMAPS I think.

jamesrom 7y ago

You should do a double-blind experiment. Isolate the human variable first. That said, I would not be surprised if there was something in the way Italian wheat is grown/processed that is the important factor.

chadcmulligan 7y ago
Yes, I've never done a true double blind. That said though, she also went to France and Spain, it was only the Italian bread she could eat. The Italians seem very protective about using the ancient grains, so yes there is an effect, but its clearly not gluten. Australia is very keen on using the modern grains with high yield so its probably something else in the grains.

MayeulC 7y ago

Coming from France, finding out that there is added sugar in most products abroad (corn syrup, fructose, lactose, etc), including bread shocked me (I mean, even in mustard... which is alien to me). That may be a lead to follow? Or that may be due to different yeasts? I'd suggest she tries to bake with imported ingredients, then local ones, and mix/match to find the culprit.

viburnum 7y ago

I have comment on this post that might answer your question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21243525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21243525 Basically some whole wheat flour is heavily processed and reconstituted.

chadcmulligan 7y ago
wow, thanks, that is disturbing reading. Its probably not a surprise that some of this food would upset someones stomach. Edit: I did try making bread with an organic stone ground flour some years ago though and that didn't help.

ReptileMan 7y ago

FODMAPS - olygoscharids that are very hard to digest. Proper fermentation reduces them. I guess the italian bread is just properly fermented and leavened. Here is fun experiment - try her tolerance towards the simplest no knead bread made at home with long cold proofing. Like 48-72 hours. Or good proper artisanal sourdough - if she can tolerate them better you have a good piece of the puzzle. And pasta gluten is quite different anyway from the bread one. It is made from durum wheat which is very hard and I think its gluten lacked the elasticity of the bread one. Does she likes eats a lot fermented foods - like sourkraut and real yogurt? They have been shown to help with stomach microbiome.

chadcmulligan 7y ago
> Does she likes eats a lot fermented foods - like sourkraut and real yogurt? They have been shown to help with stomach microbiome. Sometimes, might be time to investigate these to, thanks Edit: on the sourdough front there is some strange results, I tried an artisanal organic sourdough from a bakery that takes their bread very seriously, and she reacts to that (however, I really like it, so a bit of a bonus for me there :-) ), strangely there is a rye sourdough she gets from the supermarket and she can eat that fine. Its a puzzling set of reactions. Howvever, the good news is its not gluten its something else that can be isolated.

pacifist 7y ago

Try grinding your own flour from organically grown wheat and baking bread with that. I'm guessing she won't have a problem with it since this is essentially what is going on in Italy. They just call it making bread there.

chadcmulligan 7y ago
I have tried organic stone ground flour bought from the organic shop, grinding my own might be a bit beyond me, but may be worth investigating.

ip26 7y ago

If you can bake bread with wheat from an Italian grocery store and it doesn't cause her any problems, you could probably then narrow it down to the variety of wheat. There are actually quite a few, and they can be very different. Do run some kind of blind trial though, as another poster mentioned.

chadcmulligan 7y ago
yes that seems like the approach to take, much good advice from the HN folk

corey_moncure 7y ago

I am personally invested in this question also. Some have drawn a correlation between the use of organophosphates (one infamous compound in particular) and the rising incidence of celiac and gluten intolerance diagnosis in the USA. It may be something to look into.

chadcmulligan 7y ago

Searching around and ended up here https://natalinaskitchen.com/pizza-flour-00-from-italy-or-canadian-made-flour-whats-the-difference-part-1/ https://natalinaskitchen.com/pizza-flour-00-from-italy-or-ca... someone in the comments has had the same experience: >As an fyi, I have stopped eating Whole grain bread due to Gluten Intolerance symptoms. However Gluten-Free bread for the most part also seems to me, Flavour-free as well! However when I have travelled to Italy/France I have had no symptoms and enjoyed pizzas, pastas and croissants with out problem. I recently picked up two products – one is La Cappicella Pasta, sold through PC which is made in Italy with Durham flour and ACE Bakery’s Non-GMO Baguette….and have had no symptoms or problems. I’ve heard it before that the preservatives and non-clumping additives etc are what can contribute to a lot of GI symptoms and I seem to be experiencing that. So pleased there are some products out there that don’t make those of us with problems like that experience pain when we eat!

sshumaker 7y ago

Glyphosate, perhaps?