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The entire island is well covered by the subway except for going crosstown past the 100's which is served solidly by buses for that use case. Not to mention th

The entire island is well covered by the subway except for going crosstown past the 100's which is served solidly by buses for that use case. Not to mention the many buses that most wealthy people ignore. No need for public streetcars when you already have buses that will be running quite ahead of schedule, as seen with 14th street :) I'm for gradually removing for other reasons, but the size is not the prohibitive factor.

cheschire 7y ago
The benefit of street cars is the centralization of power generation away from the population. The downside is having to build rails into the roads. An alternative could be running power lines over the roads and making buses electric.
- adjkant 7y ago
  Very fair for longterm, I'm thinking for immediate turnaround. I think with an aggressive enough plan (which isn't going to happen in reality) you could do this without any notable spending increases in 2-3 years by just stopping cars and maybe buying a few more busses as the main cost. After that if it continues to work out, streetcars absolutely make sense. Basically just doubling the subway lines at that point. Probably ideal to cover crosstown first across places like 14th, through Central Park, 34th, 116th, 125th, Canal, and Houston, and then you can sure up the avenues with streetcars, probably starting with Harlem through the upper east side. What a fun project to imagine honestly wow.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    Long term, I would rather we build more subway lines than powered rails (or similar) for streetcars, even though subways are more expensive. Even without cars, we want that above ground space for pedestrians and cyclists.
    - adjkant 7y ago
      I'd be in agreement generally but the subway coverage is pretty dense with maybe exception to the far east/west ends. More trains per line is probably money and effort better spent at that point. You still need roads for emergency vehicles and those that need to drive, so I don't think lack of streetcars will actually save a ton of pedestrian space. In an ideal world for sure though.
humanrebar 7y ago
> ...except for going crosstown past the 100's... You mean past 60th. Also, the outer buroughs have plenty of subway inaccessible places. And other than Harlem, that's where working class New Yorkers live.
- adjkant 7y ago
  100% on the outer boroughs. This is a conversation about Manhattan... > You mean past 60th Yeah I counted the park busses in my head, but again, still good bus coverage. At least the worst case from 60-100 is literally a walk in the park.
  - humanrebar 7y ago
    People go in and out of Manhattan a lot. I'm saying you can't isolate the problem like that except for the people privileged enough to afford Manhattan rent.
    - adjkant 7y ago
      What demo exactly are you targeting? Rent isn't as expensive on the outskirts but parking always is if you're talking a commute route, so it doesn't seem like we're talking low income working class people generally. So are we talking people driving in from Jersey/Long Island? What's stopping them from leaving a car just off the island and using public transit on it? There's also the option of keeping things like FDR and Henry Hudson open and having a few concentrated parking hubs for those commuters as well. You're right, those cases need to be accounted for. And no matter what this won't solve the lack of coverage in the outer boroughs, but a solution there will take a ton of money politicians won't spend on non-wealthy donors.
      - humanrebar 7y ago
        All that might be possible. Maybe, but it will take more time. > What's stopping them from leaving a car just off the island and using public transit on it? You end up with the expenses of a car commute with the reliability, cost, and flexibility of a train commute. It probably has the costs of both commutes put together. Actually having dependable bus routes in outer burroughs would help. My vote would be for chartering private bus routes, but I'm not sure how politically viable that would be.

cheschire 7y ago

The benefit of street cars is the centralization of power generation away from the population. The downside is having to build rails into the roads. An alternative could be running power lines over the roads and making buses electric.

adjkant 7y ago
Very fair for longterm, I'm thinking for immediate turnaround. I think with an aggressive enough plan (which isn't going to happen in reality) you could do this without any notable spending increases in 2-3 years by just stopping cars and maybe buying a few more busses as the main cost. After that if it continues to work out, streetcars absolutely make sense. Basically just doubling the subway lines at that point. Probably ideal to cover crosstown first across places like 14th, through Central Park, 34th, 116th, 125th, Canal, and Houston, and then you can sure up the avenues with streetcars, probably starting with Harlem through the upper east side. What a fun project to imagine honestly wow.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  Long term, I would rather we build more subway lines than powered rails (or similar) for streetcars, even though subways are more expensive. Even without cars, we want that above ground space for pedestrians and cyclists.
  - adjkant 7y ago
    I'd be in agreement generally but the subway coverage is pretty dense with maybe exception to the far east/west ends. More trains per line is probably money and effort better spent at that point. You still need roads for emergency vehicles and those that need to drive, so I don't think lack of streetcars will actually save a ton of pedestrian space. In an ideal world for sure though.

humanrebar 7y ago

> ...except for going crosstown past the 100's... You mean past 60th. Also, the outer buroughs have plenty of subway inaccessible places. And other than Harlem, that's where working class New Yorkers live.

adjkant 7y ago
100% on the outer boroughs. This is a conversation about Manhattan... > You mean past 60th Yeah I counted the park busses in my head, but again, still good bus coverage. At least the worst case from 60-100 is literally a walk in the park.
- humanrebar 7y ago
  People go in and out of Manhattan a lot. I'm saying you can't isolate the problem like that except for the people privileged enough to afford Manhattan rent.
  - adjkant 7y ago
    What demo exactly are you targeting? Rent isn't as expensive on the outskirts but parking always is if you're talking a commute route, so it doesn't seem like we're talking low income working class people generally. So are we talking people driving in from Jersey/Long Island? What's stopping them from leaving a car just off the island and using public transit on it? There's also the option of keeping things like FDR and Henry Hudson open and having a few concentrated parking hubs for those commuters as well. You're right, those cases need to be accounted for. And no matter what this won't solve the lack of coverage in the outer boroughs, but a solution there will take a ton of money politicians won't spend on non-wealthy donors.
    - humanrebar 7y ago
      All that might be possible. Maybe, but it will take more time. > What's stopping them from leaving a car just off the island and using public transit on it? You end up with the expenses of a car commute with the reliability, cost, and flexibility of a train commute. It probably has the costs of both commutes put together. Actually having dependable bus routes in outer burroughs would help. My vote would be for chartering private bus routes, but I'm not sure how politically viable that would be.