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Isn’t that an argument for abstracting that kinda back-and-forth away rather than against it? As it stands, if it’s in the cloud and not on your device there’s

by htfu 7y ago

Isn’t that an argument for abstracting that kinda back-and-forth away rather than against it? As it stands, if it’s in the cloud and not on your device there’s an indicator. Try to open it and it downloads. Edit it and the changes get synced back up. Unless something is edited in multiple places while offline, or someone takes your lead and tries to manually manage copying stuff back and forth, there’s no different local copy and cloud copy. When you start talking about like, starting to edit it, well with video that’s not really how things work. If you tweak the contrast of a photo sure today’s devices abstract that in-place, but assembling multiple media into something that, if not re-encoded is at least re-muxed, why would you assume it to be “the same” file? Should the audio track be automatically wiped, since it’s now been incorporated into the other file? That makes no sense, and I don’t see how an iOS device treats source material differently.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
GP is trying to say that data is no longer in a form independent from the application you last used on it. There are whole categories of stuff you can't do with this approach, because every application now becomes a minimal file manager itself, just to avoid the "confusing" idea that data can live independently from applications.
- drdeadringer 7y ago
  Yes exactly, and thank you. Imagine if you edited a photo in Photoshop and could only access that edited photo through "Photoshop Live" or some-such. File management in the wild is dirty. Either "there is only one" or there is the Clone Wars. This is real. For anecdotal example, a family member had this issue with Picasa [before it was purchased by Google]. "I rotated and cropped thousands of my pictures, but when I look at them in my 'Pictures' folder my edits aren't there. Where are my edits? Why aren't my edits in Picasa in my 'Pictures' folder pictures?" I'm ok being called a pedantic purist on this type of thing. If you want my help, I need to know what you are talking about. Show me your file. If all I am possibly able to see is not what you want, one of us is in trouble.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    > For anecdotal example, a family member had this issue with Picasa [before it was purchased by Google]. "I rotated and cropped thousands of my pictures, but when I look at them in my 'Pictures' folder my edits aren't there. Where are my edits? Why aren't my edits in Picasa in my 'Pictures' folder pictures?" But Apple have solved this confusion by removing the files and folders and making the application the one place to do things.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      Only if your entire computing is 100% done on your own Apple devices, and you don't need anything beyond the capabilities offered by Apple's software.
      - michaelmrose 7y ago
        God forbid you want to access the same file with different apps.
    - drdeadringer 7y ago
      Apple's solution is the problem I spoke about. Putting blinders on a horse allows the horse to behave for the driver. I want the horse to behave like a horse.
  - htfu 7y ago
    Help me understand. Saving yields a psd which indeed requires PS. Whether project lives "inside" app or not it's still bound to it by format, and separate from your source. So you export the edited version, explicitly overwriting your original. Consumer apps don't care when an "edit" means fresh destructive encoding and overwrite, tools like Photoshop do, but that seems a different discussion. I suppose I'm getting hung up on not at all getting/agreeing with your examples. For "regular" files where that project/"edit in progress" distinction doesn't apply (text/code for example), whether edit-in-place is accomplished through system file manager or back and forth across apps through piping and callbacks is just an implementation and workflow detail. I rarely leave the terminal on my laptop, and prefer my stuff always backed up, so that probably what has me predisposed towards the "traditional" iOS cloud storage and x-callback-url approach to working with files and data across apps and gluing them together. It just mirrors nicely. I get that others have different tastes. But what exactly are yours? Files is confusing because there's also camera roll and the difference between On my device and iCloud isn't clear or something? Same for grandparent, just makes little sense in the context of like, iOS 8, close to none for 13.

by htfu 7y ago

TeMPOraL 7y ago

GP is trying to say that data is no longer in a form independent from the application you last used on it. There are whole categories of stuff you can't do with this approach, because every application now becomes a minimal file manager itself, just to avoid the "confusing" idea that data can live independently from applications.

drdeadringer 7y ago
Yes exactly, and thank you. Imagine if you edited a photo in Photoshop and could only access that edited photo through "Photoshop Live" or some-such. File management in the wild is dirty. Either "there is only one" or there is the Clone Wars. This is real. For anecdotal example, a family member had this issue with Picasa [before it was purchased by Google]. "I rotated and cropped thousands of my pictures, but when I look at them in my 'Pictures' folder my edits aren't there. Where are my edits? Why aren't my edits in Picasa in my 'Pictures' folder pictures?" I'm ok being called a pedantic purist on this type of thing. If you want my help, I need to know what you are talking about. Show me your file. If all I am possibly able to see is not what you want, one of us is in trouble.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  > For anecdotal example, a family member had this issue with Picasa [before it was purchased by Google]. "I rotated and cropped thousands of my pictures, but when I look at them in my 'Pictures' folder my edits aren't there. Where are my edits? Why aren't my edits in Picasa in my 'Pictures' folder pictures?" But Apple have solved this confusion by removing the files and folders and making the application the one place to do things.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Only if your entire computing is 100% done on your own Apple devices, and you don't need anything beyond the capabilities offered by Apple's software.
    - michaelmrose 7y ago
      God forbid you want to access the same file with different apps.
  - drdeadringer 7y ago
    Apple's solution is the problem I spoke about. Putting blinders on a horse allows the horse to behave for the driver. I want the horse to behave like a horse.
- htfu 7y ago
  Help me understand. Saving yields a psd which indeed requires PS. Whether project lives "inside" app or not it's still bound to it by format, and separate from your source. So you export the edited version, explicitly overwriting your original. Consumer apps don't care when an "edit" means fresh destructive encoding and overwrite, tools like Photoshop do, but that seems a different discussion. I suppose I'm getting hung up on not at all getting/agreeing with your examples. For "regular" files where that project/"edit in progress" distinction doesn't apply (text/code for example), whether edit-in-place is accomplished through system file manager or back and forth across apps through piping and callbacks is just an implementation and workflow detail. I rarely leave the terminal on my laptop, and prefer my stuff always backed up, so that probably what has me predisposed towards the "traditional" iOS cloud storage and x-callback-url approach to working with files and data across apps and gluing them together. It just mirrors nicely. I get that others have different tastes. But what exactly are yours? Files is confusing because there's also camera roll and the difference between On my device and iCloud isn't clear or something? Same for grandparent, just makes little sense in the context of like, iOS 8, close to none for 13.