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s/mechanism/hack/g DoH is a hack, the use of suboptimal protocol to achieve the same goal. DoT is a protocol explicitly designed for it's purpose. If brickhe

s/mechanism/hack/g DoH is a hack, the use of suboptimal protocol to achieve the same goal. DoT is a protocol explicitly designed for it's purpose. If brickhead sysadmins block DoT it's their problem, and if you have to work around that then it is, in fact, a hack (or a "workaround", doesn't matter). It's not that DoT or DoH are superior to one another, it's that DoT is "DNS in TLS", and DoH is "DNS in HTTP in TLS", doesn't that raise a red flag for you?

tptacek 7y ago
You don't seem to follow. Millions of end-users get access to the Internet through major ISPs that monitor, log, monetize, and manipulate DNS. I'm on AT&T, and they absolutely do this. The purpose of DoH is to add a privacy mechanism that AT&T, or coffee shop wireless networks, or airplane wireless, or whatever, can't trivially disable. That's why it exists and why it's tunneled through HTTPS. Meanwhile, the reason network operators have a meme now about how much better DoT is comes down to the fact that they have middleboxes on their networks that passively monitor DNS, and they themselves (and, more importantly, the vendors that sell those boxes) want to hold back DNS privacy --- at least on their networks --- to keep those boxes working. They prefer a DNS privacy mechanism that has a kill switch that the network controls, not the user. The idea that end-users should give a shit about any of this "L7" "purpose built" "control plane" "layering violation" nonsense, and opt themselves into a version of DNS privacy that their network operators can turn off for them without end-user consent, is lunacy; bamboozlement.
- ricardbejarano 7y ago
  Nothing keeps an end-user from rescinding it's ISP contract as soon as they ever slightly cross the line of filtering a single packet. I agree in that end-users shouldn't give a dime about DNS privacy, it should be private by default, but it is up to us to promote the correct protocol over the "hacky" one. If DNS-over-HTTPS is superior, then why don't we shove everything down 443/TCP? Or better yet, why don't we get rid of TCP altogether and send everything over a port-less encrypted dynamically-reliable trasport protocol? Surely middleman couldn't distinguish between traffic. Ports are there for a reason. The fact that they are used with anti-end-user intent doesn't make them (or any protocol that runs on them) inherently bad. Yet one thing that makes a protocol better than another one, given set of requirements, is efficiency. By the way, if I were to switch my DoT server from 853/TCP to 443/TCP, the port wouldn't be a problem anymore. Per your standards, now DoT would be better than DoH, wouldn't it? Same results, smaller payloads.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    Why would any end-user care about what the "correct" protocol was, when the choice was between a privacy protocol with an ISP-owned kill switch and one without?
    - ricardbejarano 7y ago
      You haven't answered my question. Your supposed "kill switch" wouldn't exist in that scenario. I gave you an apples to apples protocol comparison. If you tell me there's a single bit that lets you distinguish between HTTPS traffic and DoT traffic running both on 443/TCP, then I'll buy your "kill switch" argument. And even if you do, nothing keeps me from saying farewell to my ISP as soon as they press that switch.
  - juliusmusseau 7y ago
    My ssh server runs on port 443. That way I can connect to it when I'm on the Tim Hortons WIFI.

tptacek 7y ago

You don't seem to follow. Millions of end-users get access to the Internet through major ISPs that monitor, log, monetize, and manipulate DNS. I'm on AT&T, and they absolutely do this. The purpose of DoH is to add a privacy mechanism that AT&T, or coffee shop wireless networks, or airplane wireless, or whatever, can't trivially disable. That's why it exists and why it's tunneled through HTTPS. Meanwhile, the reason network operators have a meme now about how much better DoT is comes down to the fact that they have middleboxes on their networks that passively monitor DNS, and they themselves (and, more importantly, the vendors that sell those boxes) want to hold back DNS privacy --- at least on their networks --- to keep those boxes working. They prefer a DNS privacy mechanism that has a kill switch that the network controls, not the user. The idea that end-users should give a shit about any of this "L7" "purpose built" "control plane" "layering violation" nonsense, and opt themselves into a version of DNS privacy that their network operators can turn off for them without end-user consent, is lunacy; bamboozlement.

ricardbejarano 7y ago
Nothing keeps an end-user from rescinding it's ISP contract as soon as they ever slightly cross the line of filtering a single packet. I agree in that end-users shouldn't give a dime about DNS privacy, it should be private by default, but it is up to us to promote the correct protocol over the "hacky" one. If DNS-over-HTTPS is superior, then why don't we shove everything down 443/TCP? Or better yet, why don't we get rid of TCP altogether and send everything over a port-less encrypted dynamically-reliable trasport protocol? Surely middleman couldn't distinguish between traffic. Ports are there for a reason. The fact that they are used with anti-end-user intent doesn't make them (or any protocol that runs on them) inherently bad. Yet one thing that makes a protocol better than another one, given set of requirements, is efficiency. By the way, if I were to switch my DoT server from 853/TCP to 443/TCP, the port wouldn't be a problem anymore. Per your standards, now DoT would be better than DoH, wouldn't it? Same results, smaller payloads.
- tptacek 7y ago
  Why would any end-user care about what the "correct" protocol was, when the choice was between a privacy protocol with an ISP-owned kill switch and one without?
  - ricardbejarano 7y ago
    You haven't answered my question. Your supposed "kill switch" wouldn't exist in that scenario. I gave you an apples to apples protocol comparison. If you tell me there's a single bit that lets you distinguish between HTTPS traffic and DoT traffic running both on 443/TCP, then I'll buy your "kill switch" argument. And even if you do, nothing keeps me from saying farewell to my ISP as soon as they press that switch.
- juliusmusseau 7y ago
  My ssh server runs on port 443. That way I can connect to it when I'm on the Tim Hortons WIFI.