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Californians Learning That Solar Panels Don't Work in Blackouts

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
neonate 7y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20191012011551/https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-10/californians-learning-that-solar-panels-don-t-work-in-blackouts https://web.archive.org/web/20191012011551/https://www.bloom...
russellbeattie 7y ago
What a completely useless article. Anyone who gets solar installed learns that the power is piped back into the grid and used as a credit towards your bill. "...many are learning the hard way" Are they? The article doesn't quote or link to anyone discovering this for the first time. A better title is, "A reporter outside of California learns how solar works and writes a click-bait, information free article about it."
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  It's not at all unreasonable for people to think that power flows back when the grid is operating, and when the grid isn't, they'll still be able to use their solar panels. Yes, you and I know this requires extra equipment and introduces some safety issues, but the first blush assumption is not unreasonable here.
  - test6554 7y ago
    When I first learned about this I was annoyed, but then realized you could buy a system that works around this limitation.
    - hootbootscoot 7y ago
      Of course you can. The most elementary modicum of research into solar-powered equipment immediately shoves the question: "grid tied or off grid?" into your face. It's the primary 2 categories of equipment on online solar shops, as the menus indicate.
    - hootbootscoot 7y ago
      the "grid-tied" inverter integrates -a charge controller (PWM or MPTT, I believe the latter is a buck converter, but it trades amperage for voltage and vice-versa to constantly maintain a voltage advantage over the battery) -an AC inverter the charge controller simply needs to have the means to indepedently switch between "grid-tied" and "battery-charging" I believe most grid-tie inverters have to COMPLETELY disengage from the grid in the event of outages by LAW and this is simply because line-repair-staff don't want to get fried trying to repair lines. Lines are either "up" and working or "down" While what the person above mentioned would be technically feasible. (a distributed grid) it's not desirable nor legal under the current way power grids operate. Again, this is no failing of solar etc.
  - hootbootscoot 7y ago
    It is ridiculous to propose that a homeowner invests tens of thousands of dollars or more into their home solar kit and has no notion of it's capabilities. As I outlined above, a simple "autonomy" function provided by the already-contained DC-DC charge controller will suffice to charge a battery bank. Sans battery bank, no reasonable person could assume autonomy.
    - souprock 7y ago
      A reasonable person would assume that it works during the day. Of course it won't work by starlight. I have no idea how common this configuration is, but it makes perfect sense. It is almost like a battery-capable system, but without the batteries installed. This configuration makes sense because batteries are expensive, bulky, and hazardous. Day-only usage is still useful.
    - Pfhreak 7y ago
      > no reasonable person could assume You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means. I'm sorry, but there are plenty of people who would absolutely drop 20 grand and say, "When the sun is shining, I have power" without doing any investigation. I know a few of them.
    - brownbat 7y ago
      I spent more than that on a house that I've mostly learned about through things breaking, because homeownership is a deeply humbling experience. Things are complex and people are busy. But would be nice if there was some qualification about how many solar owners are actually confused. "Many homeowners are learning the hard way" are epic weasel words. Maybe they're right and battery sales will spike, maybe commenters are right and no one who lacks a battery system will be surprised or change their decision. I'd guess 1-3% of battery-less eligible solar owners get inspired by the blackout to buy a battery. More than zero but definitely below one in twenty.
  - hootbootscoot 7y ago
    I am interested WHO on earth flagged the parent comment and what basis they had for flagging it. Are you going to flag this comment to? Stop it please, the parent comment was perfectly valid and TRUE, more to the point. (and fitting into the rules of HN, so inform me if otherwise please...)
joshribakoff 7y ago
> And no, trying to run appliances off the power in a Tesla Inc. electric car won’t work, at least without special equipment. Are they not aware Tesla sells a separate solution for this very problem, and it isn't a car? Or are they just spewing anti-solar misinformation?
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Tesla tells you about this when you order the system (battery option), and must configure the inverter to only charge the battery from solar for the battery storage system to be eligible for the 30% federal tax credit. You might see the value now if you’re in California in PG&E territory. To answer your question, didn’t Bloomberg run their “The Big Hack” story without proof and no retraction when questioned about the veracity of the information? Inflammatory articles get more clicks, simple as that.
hootbootscoot 7y ago
What a load of utter NONSENSE. Solar panels work FINE during a blackout (daylight hours, of course) Merely buying the most basic "grid tie" inverter with no DC-DC charging capability and no batteries will not provide you with autonomy, nor does it purport to. I live off-grid and precisely DO have power during the frequent blackouts in the villages further down the mountain from me. (electrical lines on wooden poles that falling trees take out.) I additionally don't find the headline to be very productive: It is untrue. It is sensationalist. It causes doubt in solar panels, of all things. (some of the most reliable devices I can think of...) All of this at a time when (socially irresponsible) Bloomberg could be part of the push away from fossil fuels... Mr. Bloomberg himself, as Bezos and Gates, could also probably pitch-in a bit more in helping get the general American machine to realize it's duties with-regards-to the survival of large mammalian life on earth circa 2019, but I digress... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/13/firms-ignoring-climate-crisis-bankrupt-mark-carney-bank-england-governor https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/13/firms-ig...
- hootbootscoot 7y ago
  To make it worse, this horrid article has been syndicated all over the place, so there's some money and interest behind it. How wrongful and immoral.
TYPE_FASTER 7y ago
Also applies to plugging in a generator. Have known people who sourced a gen during an outage, didn’t know they couldn’t just plug it into an outlet and get power (I mean, your house will have power, but so will the grid and you won’t have any breakers). Clickbait but it’s Bloomberg so not surprised.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

https://web.archive.org/web/20191012011551/https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-10/californians-learning-that-solar-panels-don-t-work-in-blackouts https://web.archive.org/web/20191012011551/https://www.bloom...

russellbeattie 7y ago

What a completely useless article. Anyone who gets solar installed learns that the power is piped back into the grid and used as a credit towards your bill. "...many are learning the hard way" Are they? The article doesn't quote or link to anyone discovering this for the first time. A better title is, "A reporter outside of California learns how solar works and writes a click-bait, information free article about it."

Pfhreak 7y ago
It's not at all unreasonable for people to think that power flows back when the grid is operating, and when the grid isn't, they'll still be able to use their solar panels. Yes, you and I know this requires extra equipment and introduces some safety issues, but the first blush assumption is not unreasonable here.
- test6554 7y ago
  When I first learned about this I was annoyed, but then realized you could buy a system that works around this limitation.
  - hootbootscoot 7y ago
    Of course you can. The most elementary modicum of research into solar-powered equipment immediately shoves the question: "grid tied or off grid?" into your face. It's the primary 2 categories of equipment on online solar shops, as the menus indicate.
  - hootbootscoot 7y ago
    the "grid-tied" inverter integrates -a charge controller (PWM or MPTT, I believe the latter is a buck converter, but it trades amperage for voltage and vice-versa to constantly maintain a voltage advantage over the battery) -an AC inverter the charge controller simply needs to have the means to indepedently switch between "grid-tied" and "battery-charging" I believe most grid-tie inverters have to COMPLETELY disengage from the grid in the event of outages by LAW and this is simply because line-repair-staff don't want to get fried trying to repair lines. Lines are either "up" and working or "down" While what the person above mentioned would be technically feasible. (a distributed grid) it's not desirable nor legal under the current way power grids operate. Again, this is no failing of solar etc.
- hootbootscoot 7y ago
  It is ridiculous to propose that a homeowner invests tens of thousands of dollars or more into their home solar kit and has no notion of it's capabilities. As I outlined above, a simple "autonomy" function provided by the already-contained DC-DC charge controller will suffice to charge a battery bank. Sans battery bank, no reasonable person could assume autonomy.
  - souprock 7y ago
    A reasonable person would assume that it works during the day. Of course it won't work by starlight. I have no idea how common this configuration is, but it makes perfect sense. It is almost like a battery-capable system, but without the batteries installed. This configuration makes sense because batteries are expensive, bulky, and hazardous. Day-only usage is still useful.
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    > no reasonable person could assume You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means. I'm sorry, but there are plenty of people who would absolutely drop 20 grand and say, "When the sun is shining, I have power" without doing any investigation. I know a few of them.
  - brownbat 7y ago
    I spent more than that on a house that I've mostly learned about through things breaking, because homeownership is a deeply humbling experience. Things are complex and people are busy. But would be nice if there was some qualification about how many solar owners are actually confused. "Many homeowners are learning the hard way" are epic weasel words. Maybe they're right and battery sales will spike, maybe commenters are right and no one who lacks a battery system will be surprised or change their decision. I'd guess 1-3% of battery-less eligible solar owners get inspired by the blackout to buy a battery. More than zero but definitely below one in twenty.
- hootbootscoot 7y ago
  I am interested WHO on earth flagged the parent comment and what basis they had for flagging it. Are you going to flag this comment to? Stop it please, the parent comment was perfectly valid and TRUE, more to the point. (and fitting into the rules of HN, so inform me if otherwise please...)

joshribakoff 7y ago

> And no, trying to run appliances off the power in a Tesla Inc. electric car won’t work, at least without special equipment. Are they not aware Tesla sells a separate solution for this very problem, and it isn't a car? Or are they just spewing anti-solar misinformation?

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Tesla tells you about this when you order the system (battery option), and must configure the inverter to only charge the battery from solar for the battery storage system to be eligible for the 30% federal tax credit. You might see the value now if you’re in California in PG&E territory. To answer your question, didn’t Bloomberg run their “The Big Hack” story without proof and no retraction when questioned about the veracity of the information? Inflammatory articles get more clicks, simple as that.

hootbootscoot 7y ago

What a load of utter NONSENSE. Solar panels work FINE during a blackout (daylight hours, of course) Merely buying the most basic "grid tie" inverter with no DC-DC charging capability and no batteries will not provide you with autonomy, nor does it purport to. I live off-grid and precisely DO have power during the frequent blackouts in the villages further down the mountain from me. (electrical lines on wooden poles that falling trees take out.) I additionally don't find the headline to be very productive: It is untrue. It is sensationalist. It causes doubt in solar panels, of all things. (some of the most reliable devices I can think of...) All of this at a time when (socially irresponsible) Bloomberg could be part of the push away from fossil fuels... Mr. Bloomberg himself, as Bezos and Gates, could also probably pitch-in a bit more in helping get the general American machine to realize it's duties with-regards-to the survival of large mammalian life on earth circa 2019, but I digress... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/13/firms-ignoring-climate-crisis-bankrupt-mark-carney-bank-england-governor https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/13/firms-ig...

hootbootscoot 7y ago
To make it worse, this horrid article has been syndicated all over the place, so there's some money and interest behind it. How wrongful and immoral.

TYPE_FASTER 7y ago

Also applies to plugging in a generator. Have known people who sourced a gen during an outage, didn’t know they couldn’t just plug it into an outlet and get power (I mean, your house will have power, but so will the grid and you won’t have any breakers). Clickbait but it’s Bloomberg so not surprised.