5 ms·

Just out of curiosity, what do you think is a sensible hiring process for people expected to know how program, and why does it work?

kstenerud 7y ago
What I've found worked well is to have a conversation about something they've built in the past. Ask them questions about it, like why certain architectural decisions were made, what constraints they had to work under, what issues came up, and how they dealt with them. I've even hired without seeing a single line of code. You of course have to change tactics when hiring junior devs, and would probably want to see SOME code in such a case, but regardless, just talking about technical subjects they claim knowledge about is usually enough to discover how deep that knowledge goes. If they have any code at all in the wild, I'll look at it to get a fuller picture of their abilities, but I won't require it. If I want to see code, I'll tell them beforehand that I want to build a little project together with them (less than 50 LOC) that does this one trivial thing, and that they can write beforehand if they want to. Then when they come in, we either build it together if they haven't done it beforehand, or we change the specs if they did. And no, no bonus points for doing it beforehand. That's just so that they can feel more comfortable in the codebase if they feel it's necessary (being nervous in the interview and all). I'm most likely not going to compare their code to others; I'm only interested in whether their code meets the company standards. I've also fired many people. It's not hard to do, nor does it cost much. So many of these recruitment processes are predicated on the principle of "what if someone lies to us?" for fear of hiring the dud. But in reality, it's so hard to bullshit someone knowledgeable that the actual risks are tiny. Yes, I've encountered people who couldn't code. I've had such resumes passed to me by people (usually non-technical, or recruiters) telling me how awesome this person is (because they don't know enough about the subject matter to tell the difference). But it takes very little conversation about any topic one is knowledgeable in to sniff out someone's bullshit. Think of it this way: You have a leak in your house and hire a plumber. The guy comes and tells you that you need this and that. How do you know he's telling the truth? Now imagine that you're a plumber who's been asked by a friend to sit in on the conversation. How long do you think it would take before you can confidently call bullshit on what he's saying? If YOU know your shit, you can tell when other people don't. And if you DON'T know your shit, you're going to have a hard time no matter how much code they throw at you.
- oriolid 7y ago
  Ah, of course. My personal experience from several employers has been that people who believe that they can judge programmer skills by listening to their bullshit end up hiring bullshit artists. I have also worked with programmers who could easily spin a tale that covers all your questions but still couldn't write a single working line of code. Coincidentally, they were masters at explaining why the project is delayed. I'm in Europe, so it's not easy to fire wrong hires after trial period, but I have never even seen anyone admit that they made a wrong hiring decision. As an interesting case, one company I worked at hired an architect who had failed their rather trivial coding test but interviewed well. That person, together with company management, ended up driving away several competent engineers. I won't work any more for employers who don't require a programming test. Your experience may be different.
  - kstenerud 7y ago
    I'm also in Europe now (Germany). If you haven't figured out by the end of the trial period that the person can't do their job, it's not he who's the problem. It has also been my experience (20+ years) that sociopaths and egotists (the ones who will try to bullshit you beyond a few ham-fisted attempts) are in such a minority that they're not worth basing your interview process around. The only cases of hiring engineers who couldn't code that I've ever heard of directly from colleagues over my entire career (that weren't third-hand re-tellings) have been where he either was not interviewed at all, was only interviewed by someone non-technical, or was hired by someone non-technical over the objections of someone technical. TBH I think this is a manufactured problem.
  - ncmncm 7y ago
    It is amazing, the CVs that come in from people who couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag. On Wall Street everybody uses coding puzzles to screen candidates. There is really no other way. But the online coding-puzzle sites they use are mostly really terrible.

kstenerud 7y ago

What I've found worked well is to have a conversation about something they've built in the past. Ask them questions about it, like why certain architectural decisions were made, what constraints they had to work under, what issues came up, and how they dealt with them. I've even hired without seeing a single line of code. You of course have to change tactics when hiring junior devs, and would probably want to see SOME code in such a case, but regardless, just talking about technical subjects they claim knowledge about is usually enough to discover how deep that knowledge goes. If they have any code at all in the wild, I'll look at it to get a fuller picture of their abilities, but I won't require it. If I want to see code, I'll tell them beforehand that I want to build a little project together with them (less than 50 LOC) that does this one trivial thing, and that they can write beforehand if they want to. Then when they come in, we either build it together if they haven't done it beforehand, or we change the specs if they did. And no, no bonus points for doing it beforehand. That's just so that they can feel more comfortable in the codebase if they feel it's necessary (being nervous in the interview and all). I'm most likely not going to compare their code to others; I'm only interested in whether their code meets the company standards. I've also fired many people. It's not hard to do, nor does it cost much. So many of these recruitment processes are predicated on the principle of "what if someone lies to us?" for fear of hiring the dud. But in reality, it's so hard to bullshit someone knowledgeable that the actual risks are tiny. Yes, I've encountered people who couldn't code. I've had such resumes passed to me by people (usually non-technical, or recruiters) telling me how awesome this person is (because they don't know enough about the subject matter to tell the difference). But it takes very little conversation about any topic one is knowledgeable in to sniff out someone's bullshit. Think of it this way: You have a leak in your house and hire a plumber. The guy comes and tells you that you need this and that. How do you know he's telling the truth? Now imagine that you're a plumber who's been asked by a friend to sit in on the conversation. How long do you think it would take before you can confidently call bullshit on what he's saying? If YOU know your shit, you can tell when other people don't. And if you DON'T know your shit, you're going to have a hard time no matter how much code they throw at you.

oriolid 7y ago
Ah, of course. My personal experience from several employers has been that people who believe that they can judge programmer skills by listening to their bullshit end up hiring bullshit artists. I have also worked with programmers who could easily spin a tale that covers all your questions but still couldn't write a single working line of code. Coincidentally, they were masters at explaining why the project is delayed. I'm in Europe, so it's not easy to fire wrong hires after trial period, but I have never even seen anyone admit that they made a wrong hiring decision. As an interesting case, one company I worked at hired an architect who had failed their rather trivial coding test but interviewed well. That person, together with company management, ended up driving away several competent engineers. I won't work any more for employers who don't require a programming test. Your experience may be different.
- kstenerud 7y ago
  I'm also in Europe now (Germany). If you haven't figured out by the end of the trial period that the person can't do their job, it's not he who's the problem. It has also been my experience (20+ years) that sociopaths and egotists (the ones who will try to bullshit you beyond a few ham-fisted attempts) are in such a minority that they're not worth basing your interview process around. The only cases of hiring engineers who couldn't code that I've ever heard of directly from colleagues over my entire career (that weren't third-hand re-tellings) have been where he either was not interviewed at all, was only interviewed by someone non-technical, or was hired by someone non-technical over the objections of someone technical. TBH I think this is a manufactured problem.
- ncmncm 7y ago
  It is amazing, the CVs that come in from people who couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag. On Wall Street everybody uses coding puzzles to screen candidates. There is really no other way. But the online coding-puzzle sites they use are mostly really terrible.