4 ms·

Frugal Computing

63 points by yarapavan 7y ago

crb002 7y ago
With proper error correction codes and perhaps the upfront cost of a prebuilt DAG you should only have the rework of failed nodes.
chickenpotpie 7y ago
I've been wondering why none of the serverless providers have offered the ability to get better pricing if I let them control when my timed functions run. For example, I tell them that these functions are daily/monthly/whatever tasks and I don't care when they run as long as they run at least once during that time period. They can run my functions when server usage is low. They get better compute utilization and save money (hopefully passing some of those savings onto me).
- mlthoughts2018 7y ago
  I’m guessing there’s just not much of a market for that kind of usage pattern. It’s not really worth it to offer a discount of the compute costs for users who want to consume this way because they are so few. Most people want on demand or at regularly scheduled times, to such a degree that the overhead of managing some weaker time range guarantees outweighs any minor logistical optimization it could allow you to perform.
- icebraining 7y ago
  You can with AWS Batch + Spot instances, plus Cloudwatch if you want to submit jobs on a regular basis. You can even tell Batch to only run the job when the Spot price is at least X% lower than the regular price.
- bbgm 7y ago
  Like most things, this sounds good in practice but fails in reality. There are many AWS services that started with this question (Spot instances for one). But what people want to do with them is always something else when push comes to shove. I've always felt there were a lot of background tasks that just need to be done but have no time sensitivity that could fit this model, but in reality it hasn't ever been something you can generalize to a point that it's worth building it out. Still haven't given up on the idea though :).
- gumby 7y ago
  You can do this on AWS with spot pricing and other tools as described by other comments replies to your comment. But when does it work? It can really be great for experiments by a small startup or small, impoverished research group. If you have customers expecting your results in a timely fashion that won’t work at all. But you can get them to pay for your computer time, so it’s no big deal. For a small startup that hasn’t been funded yet it can be a lifesaver (let me set up this experiment and get some data — ok, now I can work on this other important thing until the response comes back, perhaps tomorrow). I used to work in the life sciences where experiments had long latency (spend all day preparing samples, stick them on the instrument and let it run all night, then spend a day or two on the data). It forced me to think differently about my strategy, which has been invaluable long term (I end up doing fewer, better experiments even when. It under such cost pressure). I suspect the folks who had to submit a card deck had the same benefits.
gumby 7y ago
There’s a good reference in a comment to the original post about read, write, and space amplification by choosing the wrong index structure for the data set: http://smalldatum.blogspot.com/2019/05/crum-conjecture-read-write-space-and.html http://smalldatum.blogspot.com/2019/05/crum-conjecture-read-...
theamk 7y ago
I think if you want slow and frugal, you stop using cloud. Cloud's advantages don't matter that much for batch jobs with long wait time. Need more machines to handle unusual load? Just let the queue grow, if the thing are still bad next week, we'll order a few more nodes. Machine went down? We can wait until tomorrow when sysadmins can troubleshoot.
- rhinoceraptor 7y ago
  It's almost as if there are economic advantages to owning your own hardware...
twotwotwo 7y ago
In a cloud context, something like AWS spot instances or GCE preemptible instances is a neat tool for this specific niche of minimizing cost when you can accept delays. The context: providers need more instances than will sell at list price, so they sell access substantial discounts if you accept that a customer paying full fare can bump you out. (Note instance shutdowns might be correlated, not random.) I've definitely heard of folks running tools like Spark that way. From the software angle, being able to efficiently use various types of machine and being able to minimize work lost when a worker dies (i.e. to checkpoint) can help there. I've heard of analogous setups for companies that own their boxes, e.g. Google's Borg paper talks about the tricks they do to make production and non-production jobs share the same box effectively. I think sometimes cost optimization will lead you to counterintuitive answers. For example, obviously the post is right that memory is pricier than disk is. (Also, external memory algorithms are cool; more people should read about them.) But when box time itself isn't free, and more RAM or faster storage allows you to use less of it, the pricier computing resources can end up paying for themselves. Like a cost version of the race to idle in power management. And the (good) discussion of the costs of going distributed may lead you to want to have big enough boxes available to allow you to distribute fewer jobs, even when those boxes cost (more-than-linearly) more than smaller ones. I'm not saying this to advocate for a particular strategy; more want to say the right approach can depend in super tricky ways on the specific workloads and constraints you have.

63 points by yarapavan 7y ago

With proper error correction codes and perhaps the upfront cost of a prebuilt DAG you should only have the rework of failed nodes.

chickenpotpie 7y ago

I've been wondering why none of the serverless providers have offered the ability to get better pricing if I let them control when my timed functions run. For example, I tell them that these functions are daily/monthly/whatever tasks and I don't care when they run as long as they run at least once during that time period. They can run my functions when server usage is low. They get better compute utilization and save money (hopefully passing some of those savings onto me).

mlthoughts2018 7y ago
I’m guessing there’s just not much of a market for that kind of usage pattern. It’s not really worth it to offer a discount of the compute costs for users who want to consume this way because they are so few. Most people want on demand or at regularly scheduled times, to such a degree that the overhead of managing some weaker time range guarantees outweighs any minor logistical optimization it could allow you to perform.
icebraining 7y ago
You can with AWS Batch + Spot instances, plus Cloudwatch if you want to submit jobs on a regular basis. You can even tell Batch to only run the job when the Spot price is at least X% lower than the regular price.
bbgm 7y ago
Like most things, this sounds good in practice but fails in reality. There are many AWS services that started with this question (Spot instances for one). But what people want to do with them is always something else when push comes to shove. I've always felt there were a lot of background tasks that just need to be done but have no time sensitivity that could fit this model, but in reality it hasn't ever been something you can generalize to a point that it's worth building it out. Still haven't given up on the idea though :).
gumby 7y ago
You can do this on AWS with spot pricing and other tools as described by other comments replies to your comment. But when does it work? It can really be great for experiments by a small startup or small, impoverished research group. If you have customers expecting your results in a timely fashion that won’t work at all. But you can get them to pay for your computer time, so it’s no big deal. For a small startup that hasn’t been funded yet it can be a lifesaver (let me set up this experiment and get some data — ok, now I can work on this other important thing until the response comes back, perhaps tomorrow). I used to work in the life sciences where experiments had long latency (spend all day preparing samples, stick them on the instrument and let it run all night, then spend a day or two on the data). It forced me to think differently about my strategy, which has been invaluable long term (I end up doing fewer, better experiments even when. It under such cost pressure). I suspect the folks who had to submit a card deck had the same benefits.

gumby 7y ago

There’s a good reference in a comment to the original post about read, write, and space amplification by choosing the wrong index structure for the data set: http://smalldatum.blogspot.com/2019/05/crum-conjecture-read-write-space-and.html http://smalldatum.blogspot.com/2019/05/crum-conjecture-read-...

theamk 7y ago

I think if you want slow and frugal, you stop using cloud. Cloud's advantages don't matter that much for batch jobs with long wait time. Need more machines to handle unusual load? Just let the queue grow, if the thing are still bad next week, we'll order a few more nodes. Machine went down? We can wait until tomorrow when sysadmins can troubleshoot.

rhinoceraptor 7y ago
It's almost as if there are economic advantages to owning your own hardware...

twotwotwo 7y ago

In a cloud context, something like AWS spot instances or GCE preemptible instances is a neat tool for this specific niche of minimizing cost when you can accept delays. The context: providers need more instances than will sell at list price, so they sell access substantial discounts if you accept that a customer paying full fare can bump you out. (Note instance shutdowns might be correlated, not random.) I've definitely heard of folks running tools like Spark that way. From the software angle, being able to efficiently use various types of machine and being able to minimize work lost when a worker dies (i.e. to checkpoint) can help there. I've heard of analogous setups for companies that own their boxes, e.g. Google's Borg paper talks about the tricks they do to make production and non-production jobs share the same box effectively. I think sometimes cost optimization will lead you to counterintuitive answers. For example, obviously the post is right that memory is pricier than disk is. (Also, external memory algorithms are cool; more people should read about them.) But when box time itself isn't free, and more RAM or faster storage allows you to use less of it, the pricier computing resources can end up paying for themselves. Like a cost version of the race to idle in power management. And the (good) discussion of the costs of going distributed may lead you to want to have big enough boxes available to allow you to distribute fewer jobs, even when those boxes cost (more-than-linearly) more than smaller ones. I'm not saying this to advocate for a particular strategy; more want to say the right approach can depend in super tricky ways on the specific workloads and constraints you have.