6 ms·
Homemade IC (2018)
- pstuart 7y agoNo backyard RISC-V foundries, yet!
- phkahler 7y agoThat will take something like 20000 transistors.
- ofcourseianal 7y ago0 0 0 Here, I think you dropped a few zeroes.
- djmips 7y agoNot a backyard foundry but this guy is attempting to make a "tangible" RISC-V CPU using "As few programmable chips as possible." he wants to use MSI and LSI chips " so things like buffers, flip flops, and so on. " More details: http://www.halfbakedmaker.org/blog/lmarv1-1 http://www.halfbakedmaker.org/blog/lmarv1-1 YouTube playlist https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEeZWGE3PwbansoxKjjMKHQqS_2cm8i60 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEeZWGE3PwbansoxKjjMK...
- ZoomStop 7y agohttps://web.archive.org/web/20191013094507/http://sam.zeloof.xyz/first-ic/ https://web.archive.org/web/20191013094507/http://sam.zeloof... In case anyone else is getting slow response times loading.
- sanxiyn 7y agoHN discussion when this was first posted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16955549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16955549
- baybal2 7y agoLeaving it here: https://libresilicon.com https://libresilicon.com A guy in HK is making a 1um fab with own process and open tooling.
- phs318u 7y agoImpressive. In the article he claims to have achieved transistor gate length < 5um (ie 1975 tech level) with test features as small as 2um. These people are amazing and their efforts are seriously cool. Props to all of them.
- squarefoot 7y agoFreaking cool! 1um might seem a lot for today industry standards if we think modern processors and peripherals, still more than adequate for analog stuff (opamps, regulators, matched transistor pairs, VCOs and VCAs, simple glue logic etc.).
- jimktrains2 7y agoWhat was the mask size for the original z80, 6502, and 8080?
- squarefoot 7y agoI don't know, the Z80 data sheet I briefly skimmed doesn't even seem to mention that detail. However if this technology can offer what was available in the 70s, and on their site they say it can be used for analog ICs too, it woud seem logic to use it to remake older obsolete chips (how many 6522 and SIDs were fried?), along with some newer versions of older analog chips.
- jabl 7y agoWikipedia says that the 6502 was originally fabbed on a 8 um process with a die size of 16.6mm^2.
- kjs3 7y agoMask size or fabrication geometry size? I'm guessing you mean the latter. It depends on the generation of these chips (moving to a smaller process) but I know the 6502 used a 10 um process at introduction, and I think the 8080 used a 5 or 6 um process. Don't know about the Z80. For comparison, the 80386 was fabricated with a 1um process.
- netfl0 7y agoHow far away are we from printing something like this at home?
- jononor 7y agoWhat you mean "printing"? From the article: There are 66 individual fabrication steps to make this chip and it takes approximately 12 hours for a full run. Automate all 66 fabrication steps into a fully integrated device is not exactly trivial.
- marcinzm 7y agoAnd, from what I can tell, some of those steps involve various less than pleasant chemicals.
- qaute 7y agoLots more detail for the uninitiated: The most complex parts of phones and computers (e.g., the CPU) are integrated circuits (ICs)[0], which are (nowadays) billions of nanometer-sized transistors on top of a piece of silicon. The way these are made is arguably the most complex, high precision manufacturing process in the world, and is usually done in multi-billion-dollar "fabs" (fabrication plant) by huge companies (e.g., Intel). Even the most basic IC fabrication, like in the article, absolutely requires maybe ~5-10 complex tools (furnace, sputterer, etc; $1000-$10k each at current eBay prices and very low quality, if you know how to rebuild/fix all of them) and a host of supporting equipment (fume hood for seriously dangerous[1] chemical work, etc). To get reasonable results, you also need to understand the device physics and then test multiple times to get the process right. I have some serious respect for Sam Zeloof of the article for getting this to work: it's at least an order of magnitude more difficult than other home manufacturing (3D printing, woodworking, welding, sewing...), even if you're already an industry expert. And his device used 6 transistors; you'd need to get the transistor manufacturing reliability up significantly to make a useful microprocessor (instead of small analog circuits), which probably starts at several thousand transistors [2]. If (GP post) you want an automated device that makes an IC for you given a digital design file, well, hm. The closest things we have today are companies that manage and run the equipment for you (fabless semiconductor companies (Qualcom, AMD...[3]) give their chip designs to, e.g., TSMC to manufacture). Academic researchers often send parts in together to reduce costs[4], in which case you could get tens of identical (reasonably simple) chips for several thousand dollars. Someone linked to [5], which looks like an attempt at a more open, hobbyist-friendly version of the same thing. I did run across [6] once, which _does_ seem to be attempting to make an easier to use, very small, automated system. I've no idea what their status is. A desktop device as simple to use as a 3D printer is barely even on the conceptual possibility level at the moment, and then only when people start talking sci-fi self-assembly and molecular nanomanufacturing and a century of R&D. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit [1] http://lnf-wiki.eecs.umich.edu/wiki/Piranha_Etch http://lnf-wiki.eecs.umich.edu/wiki/Piranha_Etch [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_count https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_count [3] https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/manufacturing/top-25-fabless-companies-2010-01/ https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/manufacturin... [4] https://www.mosis.com/what-is-mosis https://www.mosis.com/what-is-mosis [5] https://libresilicon.com/ https://libresilicon.com/ [6] https://www.minimalfab.com/en/ https://www.minimalfab.com/en/
- agumonkey 7y agoAnything similar for homemade LEDs ? (I only found one hackaday article)
- shakna 7y agoI assume you mean this [0] hackaday? There's plenty of similar guides to making Silicon Carbide LEDs. [1][2] It's basically recreating Round's discovery. [0] https://hackaday.com/2012/06/05/homemade-silicon-carbide-led/ https://hackaday.com/2012/06/05/homemade-silicon-carbide-led... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiHjPCzNxb8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiHjPCzNxb8 [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20170704125554/http://www.dlip.de/?p=99 https://web.archive.org/web/20170704125554/http://www.dlip.d...
- agumonkey 7y agoThanks a lot
- graycat 7y agoAh, acronyms! The OP (original post?) is about homemade ice cream, right? To check, I followed the URL, but nothing loaded. Some of the comments here imply that the OP is about homemade integrated circuits. Okay. I'd be more interested in homemade ice cream!
- graycat 7y agoI've been doing good work in computing for before most of the audience on Hacker News was born, and I'm still at it, e.g., with an ambitious Web site. From all my experience, far and away, the biggest bottleneck and ball and chain on progress in computing is bad technical writing, bad documentation, poor ability to describe technical work; one of the biggest problems here is undefined jargon; and there one of the biggest problems is undefined acronyms. In particular, even with my decades of experience, there is no good way for me to guess that the acronym "IC" abbreviated "integrated circuits". For an audience as broad as all of Hacker News, there is NO way to know. In particular, writing "Homemade Integrated Circuits" is plenty short so that there is no good reason to write "Homemade IC" That acronym is undefined and obscure. Technical writing in computing is awash in undefined and obscure acronyms, and that is part of the bottleneck and ball and chain on progress. The situation in technical writing broadly, e.g., in math, science, engineering, is clear: When jargon is used for the first time, define it or at least give a link to a definition. With the Internet, giving links to definitions is especially easy and convenient. For the sake of progress in computing, I urge computing and the Hacker News audience (i) to minimize use of obscure acronyms and (ii) on the first use of jargon always define or link to a definition. This advice is rock solid and just technical writing 101. In the meanwhile, indeed, I'd be more interested in homemade ice cream than homemade integrated circuits -- even for the Hacker News audience, the acronym IC more likely abbreviates "ice cream" than "integrated circuits". Other guesses at what "IC" might abbreviate: Internet Communications Information Categorization Icon Construction or more.
- FPGAhacker 7y agoI have never in my adult life of 30 years ever seen ice cream abbreviated. And why on earth would you even think of ice cream the context of hacker news?