4 ms·

> It's why slavery is hopelessly unable to compete with free markets. This sounds incredibly wrong, but obviously as someone who finds slavery morally reprehen

> It's why slavery is hopelessly unable to compete with free markets. This sounds incredibly wrong, but obviously as someone who finds slavery morally reprehensible I would love for it to be true. There are so many industries that, as far as I can tell, could never have begun without slave labor - tobacco being the obvious one that created a boon for the burgeoning United States. Sugar cane in Brazil is a modern example. Chocolate from the Ivory Coast is also interesting, because there is fair trade chocolate you can buy - the fair trade chocolate is a rounding error compared to the industry as a whole. If you're trying to produce a product in bulk that doesn't require highly trained employees, how would slavery not help your bottom line?

WalterBright 7y ago
> This sounds incredibly wrong I know it's not the conventional wisdom, but read up on the economies of the US free Northern states and the slave Southern states. The failing southern economy juxtaposed with the prosperous north was a major factor leading to war. > how would slavery not help your bottom line? 1. slaves hate you, and would like to kill you 2. slaves will do as little as possible 3. slaves will not make any constructive suggestions 4. slaves will run away 5. slaves will require armed guards 6. slaves will sabotage your operation at every opportunity 7. slaves will spit in your food (and much, much worse) 8. slave economies tend to make it illegal to educate slaves, even illegal to teach them to read, making them very unproductive 9. you wouldn't want to be in a room with a few of them without armed guards
- Judgmentality 7y ago
  Without more evidence, I think we just have to agree to disagree. I believe everything you've listed is a second-order effect, and depending on the situation (such as sugar cane in Brazil) many of them do not even apply at all. The sugar cane example is so unique I'm not sure any of them apply, the only one I think might is #8. If you have Netflix and are interested, watch season 2 episode 3 of Rotten. There are other episodes on other industries as well involving what is essentially slave labor that I believe do not apply to many of your rules as well. I am not saying slavery is always the best way to get an edge in a competitive market, but sometimes it is. Otherwise, why would people still be using it today? There are literally billions of dollars to be made every year in multiple industries if what you're saying is true.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    > Otherwise, why would people still be using it today? Generally because there is something else going on that interferes with the free market operating. There's a good reason that slave economies used to be commonplace, and when free markets appeared they disappeared, one by one. Do you think the US became a superpower because of slave labor? (Recall that the wealth produced by the slaves was demolished in the Civil War.) In example after example, countries that ditched slavery and turned to free markets became much, much wealthier.
    - Judgmentality 7y ago
      > Do you think the US became a superpower because of slave labor? (Recall that the wealth produced by the slaves was demolished in the Civil War.) In example after example, countries that ditched slavery and turned to free markets became much, much wealthier. I feel like China, while an extremely complicated example, is a good counterpoint to this.
      - WalterBright 7y ago
        China switched to free markets.
        Judgmentality 7y ago
        That's a very controversial statement without a lot more context. You can even google "is china a free market?" and see people arguing about it today (multiple articles from 2019). Many sources disagree with you, including Wikipedia. I realize this ignores almost all of the nuance and it is not binary, but I still would not consider the Chinese economy a free market. I appreciate the discussion, but I think we just disagree.
        WalterBright 7y ago
        > That's a very controversial statement without a lot more context. Here's an overview of the switch to a market economy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform

WalterBright 7y ago

> This sounds incredibly wrong I know it's not the conventional wisdom, but read up on the economies of the US free Northern states and the slave Southern states. The failing southern economy juxtaposed with the prosperous north was a major factor leading to war. > how would slavery not help your bottom line? 1. slaves hate you, and would like to kill you 2. slaves will do as little as possible 3. slaves will not make any constructive suggestions 4. slaves will run away 5. slaves will require armed guards 6. slaves will sabotage your operation at every opportunity 7. slaves will spit in your food (and much, much worse) 8. slave economies tend to make it illegal to educate slaves, even illegal to teach them to read, making them very unproductive 9. you wouldn't want to be in a room with a few of them without armed guards

Judgmentality 7y ago
Without more evidence, I think we just have to agree to disagree. I believe everything you've listed is a second-order effect, and depending on the situation (such as sugar cane in Brazil) many of them do not even apply at all. The sugar cane example is so unique I'm not sure any of them apply, the only one I think might is #8. If you have Netflix and are interested, watch season 2 episode 3 of Rotten. There are other episodes on other industries as well involving what is essentially slave labor that I believe do not apply to many of your rules as well. I am not saying slavery is always the best way to get an edge in a competitive market, but sometimes it is. Otherwise, why would people still be using it today? There are literally billions of dollars to be made every year in multiple industries if what you're saying is true.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  > Otherwise, why would people still be using it today? Generally because there is something else going on that interferes with the free market operating. There's a good reason that slave economies used to be commonplace, and when free markets appeared they disappeared, one by one. Do you think the US became a superpower because of slave labor? (Recall that the wealth produced by the slaves was demolished in the Civil War.) In example after example, countries that ditched slavery and turned to free markets became much, much wealthier.
  - Judgmentality 7y ago
    > Do you think the US became a superpower because of slave labor? (Recall that the wealth produced by the slaves was demolished in the Civil War.) In example after example, countries that ditched slavery and turned to free markets became much, much wealthier. I feel like China, while an extremely complicated example, is a good counterpoint to this.
    - WalterBright 7y ago
      China switched to free markets.
      - Judgmentality 7y ago
        That's a very controversial statement without a lot more context. You can even google "is china a free market?" and see people arguing about it today (multiple articles from 2019). Many sources disagree with you, including Wikipedia. I realize this ignores almost all of the nuance and it is not binary, but I still would not consider the Chinese economy a free market. I appreciate the discussion, but I think we just disagree.
        WalterBright 7y ago
        > That's a very controversial statement without a lot more context. Here's an overview of the switch to a market economy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform