4 ms·

> a big part of my frustration comes from having a JavaScript background Yeah, I thought so when I was reading the list of "problems". In fact, many of those a

by tomp 7y ago

> a big part of my frustration comes from having a JavaScript background Yeah, I thought so when I was reading the list of "problems". In fact, many of those are features (e.g. lists & tuples being different, list comprehensions, lazy evaluation, distinction between maps/dicts and objects, ...) but the author doesn't actually understand them. I hate to sound so negative, I guess I just didn't realize how bad a programmer knowing (only/mainly) JavaScript causes you to be.

ng12 7y ago
How about how condescending of a programmer not knowing JS causes you to be :-) Either way, if the number of idiosyncracies in your language is confusing to junior developers it's absolutely something worth considering.
- throwaway1777 7y ago
  JavaScript is full of idiosyncrasies.
  - smitty1e 7y ago
    What drives me nuts about doing JS is that the browser execution model seems vague. In python, I can have the if __name__=='__main__': main() at the end if a script, and easily import the script's functions into - pytest for testing - some other module for larger modules - into a cli.py file to slap a Click interface on it. What a great blend of flexibility while retaining coherence.
- echelon 7y ago
  Complaining about things you don't understand is pretty bad practice. The parent poster was pointing that out. Sure, the Javascript dig is unnecessary, but the language currently holds a position as the spot of first language many junior engineers employ.
- marcinzm 7y ago
  >Either way, if the number of idiosyncracies in your language is confusing to junior developers it's absolutely something worth considering. Why? Aiming for the lowest common denominators and the simplest systems tends to not create scalable long term solutions. You also seem to really undercount what a properly trained junior developer is capable of understanding.
  - ng12 7y ago
    Most popular programming languages got popular by aiming for the LCD in some capacity, e.g. Java. It's the reason why we're not all writing LISP or Haskell.
    - marcinzm 7y ago
      I don't think Python has any issues with popularity.
    - agentultra 7y ago
      I don't think that's the main reason why and is probably a small factor at best. Java rode a couple of different trends at the same time: it provided a somewhat smooth upgrade path from C++, cross-platform compatibility, and an astronomical marketing budget. Many languages in the top-10 that we believe are popular or mainstream got there by having one of platform lock-in, smooth upgrade from a prior language, or a killer, exclusive app. It's a lot less about what is good or objectively better and more about being in the right place at the right time. I've heard some claim that Python got there by being slow and steady. At one point I think I would have agreed but it does have a killer app and that's in the analysis, scientific and machine learning communities.
kevintb 7y ago
After reading what the author wrote, including gems such as > Too many other weirdo bits of magic syntax, like [list comprehensions]. I sadly have to agree with you.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
folkhack 7y ago
> I guess I just didn't realize how bad a programmer knowing (only/mainly) JavaScript causes you to be. Hey now - not all of us ECMA devs are total crap, but, I guess I know a fair bit of other languages. This guy is just totally ... I have words for it but I'd rather not get the mods on me. I struggled with an appropriate way to say this but I think he's super pretentious and just sounds frustrated with learning a new language. I mean, we've all been there but typically we don't post ignorant BS to HN/GitHub about it... Every time I jump into a new language I'm always stubbing my toes on things I find "awkward", only to learn later that there's usually a reason people design languages certain ways. If he wants to shoot his social media reputation in the foot as a developer then so be it I guess =/
- bb88 7y ago
  I struggle with learning new languages from time to time and there's always been a learning curve from starting out to being proficient. But while Python itself I think provides an awesome developer experience, django seems less than awesome, and it's taken a while for me to feel proficient in Django.
  - folkhack 7y ago
    Personally, I'm not a huge Django fan, but then again lots of people aren't huge Laravel/Symfony fans which is my web framework of choice if I'm building a monolith web app/API "software bus" sorta solution without roping in Java. That all said, I do love me some Python though! I use it as a general purpose tool to get semi-complex things done that are more scripting/job oriented vs. needing the orchestration that Django brings to the table. You could say it's a "cog" for me vs. the overall machine/engine. It's on my TODO list to get into some other Python framework libraries because I've seen lots of promising ones pop up since Django, if anyone has suggestions of what to poke my nose into I'm all ears!
mlyle 7y ago
There's some annoyances that have accumulated in python, like the inheritance patterns and too many underscored things. Decorators are kinda weird, too. I think Python is pretty awesome, but to pretend that it's super clean is a bit of a stretch. (a,) for a single-elem tuple-- avoiding colliding with (a) as a paren'd expression-- is wonky, too.
- dijit 7y ago
  I think there exists a lot of space between being “not a great programming language” and “not being super clean” though.
- dual_basis 7y ago
  For the single element tuple case - what else would you suggest? You can always do Tuple(3) instead of (3,) if you'd like.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    Could use something other than parens for bracketing tuples, so you don't have the conflict with the order-of-operations use of parens.
    - dual_basis 7y ago
      Such as? All the brackets are currently spoken for: [] = list {} = set / dict <, > = less / greater than I suppose you could overload <, > but I'm not sure that's much better. Honestly, the more I've learned different languages the more I've come to the conclusion that little syntax changes like this are minor, for the most part, and what really changes the power and feel of a language are the abstractions that it allows for.
      - mlyle 7y ago
        <> avoids syntactic ambiguity just fine-- There won't be an identifier or constant before it. <1,2,3> <1> and <> are all plausible-looking and you don't need to guess how to do 1 element or 0 element things if you know <1,2,3>. > Honestly, the more I've learned different languages the more I've come to the conclusion that little syntax changes like this are minor, for the most part, Sure, it's minor. But it's one of the few things I tripped over learning python and had to google repeatedly to get to stick in my head. The fact that python has relatively few cases of weirdness like this-- compared to say, perl-- is a big part of what makes python nice.

by tomp 7y ago

ng12 7y ago

How about how condescending of a programmer not knowing JS causes you to be :-) Either way, if the number of idiosyncracies in your language is confusing to junior developers it's absolutely something worth considering.

throwaway1777 7y ago
JavaScript is full of idiosyncrasies.
- smitty1e 7y ago
  What drives me nuts about doing JS is that the browser execution model seems vague. In python, I can have the if __name__=='__main__': main() at the end if a script, and easily import the script's functions into - pytest for testing - some other module for larger modules - into a cli.py file to slap a Click interface on it. What a great blend of flexibility while retaining coherence.
echelon 7y ago
Complaining about things you don't understand is pretty bad practice. The parent poster was pointing that out. Sure, the Javascript dig is unnecessary, but the language currently holds a position as the spot of first language many junior engineers employ.
marcinzm 7y ago
>Either way, if the number of idiosyncracies in your language is confusing to junior developers it's absolutely something worth considering. Why? Aiming for the lowest common denominators and the simplest systems tends to not create scalable long term solutions. You also seem to really undercount what a properly trained junior developer is capable of understanding.
- ng12 7y ago
  Most popular programming languages got popular by aiming for the LCD in some capacity, e.g. Java. It's the reason why we're not all writing LISP or Haskell.
  - marcinzm 7y ago
    I don't think Python has any issues with popularity.
  - agentultra 7y ago
    I don't think that's the main reason why and is probably a small factor at best. Java rode a couple of different trends at the same time: it provided a somewhat smooth upgrade path from C++, cross-platform compatibility, and an astronomical marketing budget. Many languages in the top-10 that we believe are popular or mainstream got there by having one of platform lock-in, smooth upgrade from a prior language, or a killer, exclusive app. It's a lot less about what is good or objectively better and more about being in the right place at the right time. I've heard some claim that Python got there by being slow and steady. At one point I think I would have agreed but it does have a killer app and that's in the analysis, scientific and machine learning communities.

kevintb 7y ago

After reading what the author wrote, including gems such as > Too many other weirdo bits of magic syntax, like [list comprehensions]. I sadly have to agree with you.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

folkhack 7y ago

> I guess I just didn't realize how bad a programmer knowing (only/mainly) JavaScript causes you to be. Hey now - not all of us ECMA devs are total crap, but, I guess I know a fair bit of other languages. This guy is just totally ... I have words for it but I'd rather not get the mods on me. I struggled with an appropriate way to say this but I think he's super pretentious and just sounds frustrated with learning a new language. I mean, we've all been there but typically we don't post ignorant BS to HN/GitHub about it... Every time I jump into a new language I'm always stubbing my toes on things I find "awkward", only to learn later that there's usually a reason people design languages certain ways. If he wants to shoot his social media reputation in the foot as a developer then so be it I guess =/

bb88 7y ago
I struggle with learning new languages from time to time and there's always been a learning curve from starting out to being proficient. But while Python itself I think provides an awesome developer experience, django seems less than awesome, and it's taken a while for me to feel proficient in Django.
- folkhack 7y ago
  Personally, I'm not a huge Django fan, but then again lots of people aren't huge Laravel/Symfony fans which is my web framework of choice if I'm building a monolith web app/API "software bus" sorta solution without roping in Java. That all said, I do love me some Python though! I use it as a general purpose tool to get semi-complex things done that are more scripting/job oriented vs. needing the orchestration that Django brings to the table. You could say it's a "cog" for me vs. the overall machine/engine. It's on my TODO list to get into some other Python framework libraries because I've seen lots of promising ones pop up since Django, if anyone has suggestions of what to poke my nose into I'm all ears!

mlyle 7y ago

There's some annoyances that have accumulated in python, like the inheritance patterns and too many underscored things. Decorators are kinda weird, too. I think Python is pretty awesome, but to pretend that it's super clean is a bit of a stretch. (a,) for a single-elem tuple-- avoiding colliding with (a) as a paren'd expression-- is wonky, too.

dijit 7y ago
I think there exists a lot of space between being “not a great programming language” and “not being super clean” though.
dual_basis 7y ago
For the single element tuple case - what else would you suggest? You can always do Tuple(3) instead of (3,) if you'd like.
- mlyle 7y ago
  Could use something other than parens for bracketing tuples, so you don't have the conflict with the order-of-operations use of parens.
  - dual_basis 7y ago
    Such as? All the brackets are currently spoken for: [] = list {} = set / dict <, > = less / greater than I suppose you could overload <, > but I'm not sure that's much better. Honestly, the more I've learned different languages the more I've come to the conclusion that little syntax changes like this are minor, for the most part, and what really changes the power and feel of a language are the abstractions that it allows for.
    - mlyle 7y ago
      <> avoids syntactic ambiguity just fine-- There won't be an identifier or constant before it. <1,2,3> <1> and <> are all plausible-looking and you don't need to guess how to do 1 element or 0 element things if you know <1,2,3>. > Honestly, the more I've learned different languages the more I've come to the conclusion that little syntax changes like this are minor, for the most part, Sure, it's minor. But it's one of the few things I tripped over learning python and had to google repeatedly to get to stick in my head. The fact that python has relatively few cases of weirdness like this-- compared to say, perl-- is a big part of what makes python nice.