5 ms·

I'm a cheap SOB so I can't read the whole article, but I am really looking forward to a time when a city center no longer allows human operated vehicles. A tim

I'm a cheap SOB so I can't read the whole article, but I am really looking forward to a time when a city center no longer allows human operated vehicles. A time when streets have no lights, lanes or direction of traffic. A time when during certain times of the day a street can dynamically change from one way to two way and back to one way traffic, all based on the collaborative hive mind of self driving cars. Cars constantly talking to eachother, the network and making thousand of tiny decisions about what lane to occupy, where to turn in order to expedite their own trip and that of their nearby neighbor.

loons2 7y ago
I read the whole thing without even realizing there was a paywall by CTRL-ALT-R (reader mode in FF) and then CTRL-R (reload).
L_Rahman 7y ago
It is stunning to me that we can more easily imagine a city center with a collaborative hive mind of self driving cars than we can one with no cars at all. Why do we want that future so badly?
- heyflyguy 7y ago
  What is your vision?
  - L_Rahman 7y ago
    I believe /u/gherkinnn has painted a picture that represents both of our desired futures.
  - FreelanceX 7y ago
    Just what he said... A city with no cars at all.
    - heyflyguy 7y ago
      I hope in 100 years you're right. I hope in 20 years I'm right.
  - gherkinnn 7y ago
    A hivemind of spacious boxes on wheels, linked to make a sort of snake. Each fitted with seats and things to hold on to. They run along fixed routes in regular intervals. They could transport thousands of people per hour safely around a town of any size. And as ‘snake’ is not an ideal word, I’d suggest the word ‘tram’. Has a nice ring to it. A variation could be ones that don’t run on tracks but normal wheels. Rest still applies. Shall we call those ‘busses’? Bike lanes, access for business and residents keep the rest alive. Bonus points of we plant lots of trees and build little fountains.
- wongarsu 7y ago
  As a German I am not at all looking forward to GPs vision. But I'm used to huge pedestrian zones, walking to the supermarket, and more recently effortlessly zooming through inner cities on electrical kick-scooters (and the pick-up and drop-off anywhere model seems to work fairly well around here). The only transformation I'm hoping for are more electrical cars to reduce noise and pollution, other than that I'm fairly content with our city center design. But of course that's a huge culture disconnect to the US. Germany may be a country of car manufacturers, and we love driving cars, but the US has designed their cities around cars in a way probably no other country has.
- rayiner 7y ago
  Because cars are great? You get where you want to go quickly, can carry a bunch of stuff with you, and are protected from the elements. Walking, by contrast, sucks. Here in DC, it’s pleasant outside for like 4 months out of the year. For five months out of the year, the daily low is below freezing or the daily high is above 80. That’s true in Amsterdam zero months out of the year.
  - L_Rahman 7y ago
    The alternative to cars isn't walking in a car based city, it's a combination of any of the following modes: subways, light rail, bus rapid transit, bikeshare bikes, personally owned bikes, electric assist personal vehicles (bikes, scooters, wheelchairs), pedestrianized walkways shaded by trees, humane public space, higher density life leading to lower transit time People have non-car based cities where it's really hot. I was just in Taipei where it's 90F+ and 80%+ most of the year which has most of the things I described. And also where it's really cold. I haven't been to Copenhagen, but it's snowy for a solid three to four months of the year and people use their public transit infrastructure (cycling included) year round.
  - mhandley 7y ago
    Those benefits would also be true in something like a Messerschmitt car: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_KR200 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_KR200 If we can build electric versions of this that don't need huge crumple zones because they don't crash and don't have to share the road with huge vehicles that do crash, then that might be an appropriate vehicle for cities with inclement climates. But designing cities around todays cars definitely seems to have been a mistake.
  - MereInterest 7y ago
    Walking sucks in a city designed for cars. Needing to walk past row after row of parking spaces, or taking a half-mile detour to get to the nearest crosswalk. Intersections are designed to avoid slowing cars down, which increases the danger of every crossing. Walking is fantastic in cities that are designed for walking. Walking by a different shop every dozen steps, rather than every quarter mile. Crossing the street at any location, or even having the street repurposed for walking in. Yes, snow is annoying. You bundle up with a coat and boots, and then it doesn't matter anymore. The fundamental difference is in how a city is designed.
mgbmtl 7y ago
I'm all for progress, I dislike driving (and I do own a car), but that sounds like streets that would have no pedestrians or cyclists. I don't think it would work well in cities.
gray_-_wolf 7y ago
> Cars constantly talking to eachother, the network and making thousand of tiny decisions about what lane to occupy, where to turn in order to expedite their own trip and that of their nearby neighbor. How do you imagine making such system secure against malicous actors? I don't think it's possible, it would just open huge door for terrorism.
- Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
  Would it be any different from how it is now? Right now roads and people around them are also vulnerable to terrorists that might want to drive dangerously or just outright ram into other vechicles or pedestrians.
  - frosted-flakes 7y ago
    But not on a large scale. If a terrorist finds a security hole, he controls all the cars.
- the8472 7y ago
  The information should be treated as advisory. The same as turn indicators are now for example, we do not blindly rely on them as source of truth. But yes, it is not easy since malicious data may cause more trouble than accidentally incorrect data. It probably should not be a forwarding network either, only short range p2p communication, that would hopefully limit the scope of any attack.
Viker 7y ago
But from en engineering point of view, we are looking forward to the time when cheap Sobs and people of low intelligence just dissaper. We want people to be in constant communication, and just understand what is right to do and not do anything wrong.... We are sick of people using software in ways other than intended... Solving a problem by just removing the variable is not exactly a solution...
- drdeadringer 7y ago
  > and not do anything wrong What is a "wrong" thing to do? Do you mean "follow the procedure"? Something moral or ethical or cultural or legal? Something "stupid"? [What is "stupid"? Have you done something "stupid" or "wrong" with the mind that you were doing "right" or "correct"?] > We are sick of people using software in ways other than intended Are you talking about something other than the Law Of Unintended Consequences? Should DARPA have anticipated US election influence through Facebook when DARPA developed the Internet? Would that have been considered science fiction at the time? I am asking as an engineer.
- Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
  > people of low intelligence just dissaper. What recent practical trend or phenomenon in the world in general makes you think that the society is moving in that direction?
  - yabadabadoes 7y ago
    Not the OP, but the most recent trend that scares me is 2FA economy choices, the way they let corporations abuse people and the advanced social engineering they encourage. I hated the old banking 1 site devices and still look forward to U2F, but the behavior going on with SMS makes me wonder if anyone from my generation will be able to participate in their own finances when they retire without getting fleeced both legally by specialists for the slightly infirm and illegal con-artists. In some countries government has stepped in to make more standardized digital systems that at least allow elders to safely use low interest bank accounts. A different but similar example for those with specific non-age related defecits is the state of online Casino regulation in the UK.. (I think countries with virtually no regulation are safer for people with gambling problems than the UK, since the UK creates a great deal of certainty for those exploiting the irrational in exchange for tax revenue to lower rates for the rational.)
achow 7y ago
http://archive.is/Xhoqw http://archive.is/Xhoqw

loons2 7y ago

I read the whole thing without even realizing there was a paywall by CTRL-ALT-R (reader mode in FF) and then CTRL-R (reload).

L_Rahman 7y ago

It is stunning to me that we can more easily imagine a city center with a collaborative hive mind of self driving cars than we can one with no cars at all. Why do we want that future so badly?

heyflyguy 7y ago
What is your vision?
- L_Rahman 7y ago
  I believe /u/gherkinnn has painted a picture that represents both of our desired futures.
- FreelanceX 7y ago
  Just what he said... A city with no cars at all.
  - heyflyguy 7y ago
    I hope in 100 years you're right. I hope in 20 years I'm right.
- gherkinnn 7y ago
  A hivemind of spacious boxes on wheels, linked to make a sort of snake. Each fitted with seats and things to hold on to. They run along fixed routes in regular intervals. They could transport thousands of people per hour safely around a town of any size. And as ‘snake’ is not an ideal word, I’d suggest the word ‘tram’. Has a nice ring to it. A variation could be ones that don’t run on tracks but normal wheels. Rest still applies. Shall we call those ‘busses’? Bike lanes, access for business and residents keep the rest alive. Bonus points of we plant lots of trees and build little fountains.
wongarsu 7y ago
As a German I am not at all looking forward to GPs vision. But I'm used to huge pedestrian zones, walking to the supermarket, and more recently effortlessly zooming through inner cities on electrical kick-scooters (and the pick-up and drop-off anywhere model seems to work fairly well around here). The only transformation I'm hoping for are more electrical cars to reduce noise and pollution, other than that I'm fairly content with our city center design. But of course that's a huge culture disconnect to the US. Germany may be a country of car manufacturers, and we love driving cars, but the US has designed their cities around cars in a way probably no other country has.
rayiner 7y ago
Because cars are great? You get where you want to go quickly, can carry a bunch of stuff with you, and are protected from the elements. Walking, by contrast, sucks. Here in DC, it’s pleasant outside for like 4 months out of the year. For five months out of the year, the daily low is below freezing or the daily high is above 80. That’s true in Amsterdam zero months out of the year.
- L_Rahman 7y ago
  The alternative to cars isn't walking in a car based city, it's a combination of any of the following modes: subways, light rail, bus rapid transit, bikeshare bikes, personally owned bikes, electric assist personal vehicles (bikes, scooters, wheelchairs), pedestrianized walkways shaded by trees, humane public space, higher density life leading to lower transit time People have non-car based cities where it's really hot. I was just in Taipei where it's 90F+ and 80%+ most of the year which has most of the things I described. And also where it's really cold. I haven't been to Copenhagen, but it's snowy for a solid three to four months of the year and people use their public transit infrastructure (cycling included) year round.
- mhandley 7y ago
  Those benefits would also be true in something like a Messerschmitt car: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_KR200 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_KR200 If we can build electric versions of this that don't need huge crumple zones because they don't crash and don't have to share the road with huge vehicles that do crash, then that might be an appropriate vehicle for cities with inclement climates. But designing cities around todays cars definitely seems to have been a mistake.
- MereInterest 7y ago
  Walking sucks in a city designed for cars. Needing to walk past row after row of parking spaces, or taking a half-mile detour to get to the nearest crosswalk. Intersections are designed to avoid slowing cars down, which increases the danger of every crossing. Walking is fantastic in cities that are designed for walking. Walking by a different shop every dozen steps, rather than every quarter mile. Crossing the street at any location, or even having the street repurposed for walking in. Yes, snow is annoying. You bundle up with a coat and boots, and then it doesn't matter anymore. The fundamental difference is in how a city is designed.

mgbmtl 7y ago

I'm all for progress, I dislike driving (and I do own a car), but that sounds like streets that would have no pedestrians or cyclists. I don't think it would work well in cities.

gray_-_wolf 7y ago

> Cars constantly talking to eachother, the network and making thousand of tiny decisions about what lane to occupy, where to turn in order to expedite their own trip and that of their nearby neighbor. How do you imagine making such system secure against malicous actors? I don't think it's possible, it would just open huge door for terrorism.

Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
Would it be any different from how it is now? Right now roads and people around them are also vulnerable to terrorists that might want to drive dangerously or just outright ram into other vechicles or pedestrians.
- frosted-flakes 7y ago
  But not on a large scale. If a terrorist finds a security hole, he controls all the cars.
the8472 7y ago
The information should be treated as advisory. The same as turn indicators are now for example, we do not blindly rely on them as source of truth. But yes, it is not easy since malicious data may cause more trouble than accidentally incorrect data. It probably should not be a forwarding network either, only short range p2p communication, that would hopefully limit the scope of any attack.

Viker 7y ago

But from en engineering point of view, we are looking forward to the time when cheap Sobs and people of low intelligence just dissaper. We want people to be in constant communication, and just understand what is right to do and not do anything wrong.... We are sick of people using software in ways other than intended... Solving a problem by just removing the variable is not exactly a solution...

drdeadringer 7y ago
> and not do anything wrong What is a "wrong" thing to do? Do you mean "follow the procedure"? Something moral or ethical or cultural or legal? Something "stupid"? [What is "stupid"? Have you done something "stupid" or "wrong" with the mind that you were doing "right" or "correct"?] > We are sick of people using software in ways other than intended Are you talking about something other than the Law Of Unintended Consequences? Should DARPA have anticipated US election influence through Facebook when DARPA developed the Internet? Would that have been considered science fiction at the time? I am asking as an engineer.
Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
> people of low intelligence just dissaper. What recent practical trend or phenomenon in the world in general makes you think that the society is moving in that direction?
- yabadabadoes 7y ago
  Not the OP, but the most recent trend that scares me is 2FA economy choices, the way they let corporations abuse people and the advanced social engineering they encourage. I hated the old banking 1 site devices and still look forward to U2F, but the behavior going on with SMS makes me wonder if anyone from my generation will be able to participate in their own finances when they retire without getting fleeced both legally by specialists for the slightly infirm and illegal con-artists. In some countries government has stepped in to make more standardized digital systems that at least allow elders to safely use low interest bank accounts. A different but similar example for those with specific non-age related defecits is the state of online Casino regulation in the UK.. (I think countries with virtually no regulation are safer for people with gambling problems than the UK, since the UK creates a great deal of certainty for those exploiting the irrational in exchange for tax revenue to lower rates for the rational.)

achow 7y ago

http://archive.is/Xhoqw http://archive.is/Xhoqw