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Can I ask you why you have this particular hope? Is it because you are a user of apple products and hope that you will continue to do so in the future because

by Teever 7y ago

Can I ask you why you have this particular hope? Is it because you are a user of apple products and hope that you will continue to do so in the future because you are dependent on them? Is it because you believe that apple is a good company and you hope for the best for them? Why should we hope for the best for a company that has made hundreds of billions off of offshoring jobs to an authoritarian country with little regard for investing in manufacturing in America? The way I see it is that if China decides to squeeze Apple by restricting their production it will be a fair comeuppance for a company that has seen fit to extract billions in wealth from developers through their app store and has sought to turn their commodity hardware into status symbols to extract even more wealth from middle class people who want to feel like they're more than middle class. If the executives at Apple had any foresight and any interest beyond self interest they would have encouraged domestic production a decade or more ago. Instead we have a situation where people are crying for poor Apple, a company who that has more money than god and who could have used that to create their own supply chain domestically which would have had tremendous benefits for America and the American people. Instead they have chose to consort and ultimately enable an authoritarian country into a situation where they now pose a legitimate threat both militarily and culturally to America, the albeit flawed but last best hope for freedom in the world. Think different indeed.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago
It's pointless expecting corporations do make those sort of sacrifices, it would be economic suicide.
- vharuck 7y ago
  If a company chooses to heavily invest in a nation with limited freedoms, the suicide started when the decision was made. Not when the consequences start to hurt.
  - throwaway2048 7y ago
    Yep, the idea that companies should be given a free pass to act with utter amorality because they put themselves in a situation where they are obliged to do so is ridiculous.
- LilBytes 7y ago
  I very much doubt it would be suicide, it'd be an economic inconvenience. But even that cause hell to freeze over for their stock holders even if the loss was only momentary. Publicly held companies will rarely choose the good of the public over the good of their stockholders unless given fiscal incentives through tax increases or tax decreases. Unless they become as wealthy as Bill Gates and make a non-profit with their enormous wealth.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Given that I don’t see ANY large companies that don’t manufacture or assemble in China, especially electronics, I don’t see how one can claim it would not be economic suicide. Consumers have chosen their priorities, and they’re only able/willing to spend a little bit extra for a better product. They’re not going to spend that much more for more expensive labor too.
    - mattacular 7y ago
      Interesting that you attempt lay some blame for the situation on consumers who have "chosen their priorities" That is absurd. Consumers have absolutely no choice in the matter other than the most unpractical "avoid using modern electronics"
      - lotsofpulp 7y ago
        They did at some point in the past. Large portions of the US manufacturing and textile sector disappeared because people opted for the cheaper imported items. I don’t see any reason to assume they would be willing to pay more for labor now either.
        paulryanrogers 7y ago
        With increasingly depressed wages I do wonder at what point counterproductive choices become self reinforcing. Such as buying the cheapest even if it's long term cost is higher until there are no other options.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  It's only economic suicide because people don't expect those "sacrifices". The market doesn't value ethics on its own, it has to be made to value it - by things like public expectations, customer pressure, or regulations.
- greggman2 7y ago
  Didn't pressure work for companies in South Africa? Didn't pressure work for catching dolphins in fish nets? Note I have no idea if those were effective. I was too young to know. I just remember lots of talk about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Apartheid_Movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Apartheid_Movement https://nvdatabase.swarthmore.edu/content/united-states-consumers-boycott-tuna-protect-dolphins-1988-1990 https://nvdatabase.swarthmore.edu/content/united-states-cons...
lovetocode 7y ago
This is spot on. I really enjoyed the point you made how this is karma for robbing App Store developers. I am not sure I understand the cultural threat though. Militarily from a cyber perspective they are certainly a threat.
eternalban 7y ago
This is a fair rant all around, but in my opinion your righteous anger is misplaced. Apple, as other nominally American "multi-national" corporations, was and remains subject to government policy and plans. Which institutions, centers of power, and influential individuals determined that the de-industrialization of United States was such a hot idea and pushed that to its extremes in the 90s? Apple simply operated in the stated and promoted policy regime. They are not alone. (Also cross your fingers regarding your "last hopes". Patriot Act. Secret courts. Permanent state of "national emergency" with attendant curtailment of our Natural Rights, "Surveillance Capitalism", ...)
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  Which institutions, centers of power, and influential individuals determined that the de-industrialization of United States was such a hot idea and pushed that to its extremes in the 90s? It’s worth remembering that in the 90s, Francis Fukuyama was the hottest philosopher around and there was a general belief that economic liberalisation would inevitably lead a country towards Western style democracy and all that entailed. No one, certainly no one as prominent as Fukuyama ever predicted the opposite would in fact occur. Not that this excuses Apple or anyone else. Once it became apparent they should have acted urgently. Because it meant that all their basic assumptions about how the world works need to be re-evaluated.
  - aiscapehumanity 7y ago
    Lol people like baudrilllard, gilles, and guattari had better 21st century predictions then fukuyama. Fukuyama is like the starwars of 90s philosophy, mainstream tripe.
    - goatinaboat 7y ago
      Sure but I didn’t assert he was the greatest philosopher, only the most popular, the star of the show. He has since renounced his 90s work, to be fair.
      - 7y ago
simonh 7y ago
>If the executives at Apple had any foresight and any interest beyond self interest they would have encouraged domestic production As a furriner (Brit) with a Chinese wife the awesome self-absorbed tone deafness here is a sight to behold. Because you know, furriers aren't really people you know, so they just don't count in any rational moral equation. Even for a company with tens of thousands of non-American employees. What right have they got to expect reasonable or fair treatment? Thanks.
- javajosh 7y ago
  One must take care to distinguish between the Chinese people and their government. I don't think the GP was talking about the people - he was talking about the government. (I have always been impressed with the intelligence, humor and heart of the Chinese people I've known; and yet this makes the authoritarianism of their government even more striking).
  - dbuder 7y ago
    Yeah but have you walked around Shanghai and asked random people questions.
  - yostrovs 7y ago
    Humor? Really?
    - javajosh 7y ago
      Well, I was last in China around 2005, and I could speak a little Mandarin, and this seemed to delight the people I (tried) to speak with. Once or twice someone bought be a beer, and even the vendors seemed happy to know that I knew how to haggle. I don't know -I just really liked it and felt at home.
- computerex 7y ago
  I don't even know what point you're trying to make. No one is inherently against the Chinese. People are against the CCP, and their disgusting authoritarian regime.
m10i 7y ago
You didn't mention taxes. Doesn't Apple offshore their earnings as well?
csommers 7y ago
Why would you NOT want to have that hope? Being reliant upon China for anything is a huge no-no.
awinder 7y ago
Yeah, this is a super-weird anti-Apple flex. There’s a lot of problems with it, mostly that damn near every tech product is manufactured in China, or using majority components manufactured in China, etc. But here’s the biggest problem I have. China deliberately wanted to focus on this type of manufacturing for decades. You don’t just decide you’re going to manufacture iPhones and then poof in 6 months you’re running world-class operations. It would take untold time and dollars to develop these capabilities in a human workforce in America. What you’re all hopped up about, has literally no chance of happening. I too have qualms with what is going on in China, but like everything that happens in this life, I’m flipping petrified of how much damage some reactionary american screed might do.
- 14 7y ago
  You do realize how much money Apple makes right? They absolutely have the money to run these capabilities in America. They also have enough money they could do it in a timely manner. What they know would happen is the cost to actually manufacture an iPhone would shoot through the roof and they would be left either making less profit to sell the phone at the same price point it always has been, or they will have to dramatically reduce shareholder return. They don't want to do either of those things obviously because right now new iPhone cost around 1000$ and it is probably close to what the market will bare. So their only option would be reduce shareholder return and I think that is the only thing stopping them from moving home. Simply put they would not make as much profit.
  - pwinnski 7y ago
    Is your argument that their manufacturing costs would increase by less than 30%? Or that you expect Apple to fold as a company? You state "they absolutely have the money to run these capabilities in America." Apple's published margin on hardware is 30%, so if manufacturing in America increases costs by 30%, Apple no longer makes a profit selling hardware. If manufacturing increases costs by more than 30%, Apple starts losing money selling hardware. Big numbers are big because Apple is selling many, many, many phones. That also means that adding to the cost of manufacturing by even a small amount per unit immediately chews up a lot of those outrageous profits.
foogazi 7y ago
>a company that has seen fit to extract billions in wealth from developers through their app store This doesn’t make sense - App Store is a voluntary program no one is forced to develop apps for iPhone, or even android

by Teever 7y ago

tonyedgecombe 7y ago

It's pointless expecting corporations do make those sort of sacrifices, it would be economic suicide.

vharuck 7y ago
If a company chooses to heavily invest in a nation with limited freedoms, the suicide started when the decision was made. Not when the consequences start to hurt.
- throwaway2048 7y ago
  Yep, the idea that companies should be given a free pass to act with utter amorality because they put themselves in a situation where they are obliged to do so is ridiculous.
LilBytes 7y ago
I very much doubt it would be suicide, it'd be an economic inconvenience. But even that cause hell to freeze over for their stock holders even if the loss was only momentary. Publicly held companies will rarely choose the good of the public over the good of their stockholders unless given fiscal incentives through tax increases or tax decreases. Unless they become as wealthy as Bill Gates and make a non-profit with their enormous wealth.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  Given that I don’t see ANY large companies that don’t manufacture or assemble in China, especially electronics, I don’t see how one can claim it would not be economic suicide. Consumers have chosen their priorities, and they’re only able/willing to spend a little bit extra for a better product. They’re not going to spend that much more for more expensive labor too.
  - mattacular 7y ago
    Interesting that you attempt lay some blame for the situation on consumers who have "chosen their priorities" That is absurd. Consumers have absolutely no choice in the matter other than the most unpractical "avoid using modern electronics"
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      They did at some point in the past. Large portions of the US manufacturing and textile sector disappeared because people opted for the cheaper imported items. I don’t see any reason to assume they would be willing to pay more for labor now either.
      - paulryanrogers 7y ago
        With increasingly depressed wages I do wonder at what point counterproductive choices become self reinforcing. Such as buying the cheapest even if it's long term cost is higher until there are no other options.
TeMPOraL 7y ago
It's only economic suicide because people don't expect those "sacrifices". The market doesn't value ethics on its own, it has to be made to value it - by things like public expectations, customer pressure, or regulations.
greggman2 7y ago
Didn't pressure work for companies in South Africa? Didn't pressure work for catching dolphins in fish nets? Note I have no idea if those were effective. I was too young to know. I just remember lots of talk about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Apartheid_Movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Apartheid_Movement https://nvdatabase.swarthmore.edu/content/united-states-consumers-boycott-tuna-protect-dolphins-1988-1990 https://nvdatabase.swarthmore.edu/content/united-states-cons...

lovetocode 7y ago

This is spot on. I really enjoyed the point you made how this is karma for robbing App Store developers. I am not sure I understand the cultural threat though. Militarily from a cyber perspective they are certainly a threat.

eternalban 7y ago

This is a fair rant all around, but in my opinion your righteous anger is misplaced. Apple, as other nominally American "multi-national" corporations, was and remains subject to government policy and plans. Which institutions, centers of power, and influential individuals determined that the de-industrialization of United States was such a hot idea and pushed that to its extremes in the 90s? Apple simply operated in the stated and promoted policy regime. They are not alone. (Also cross your fingers regarding your "last hopes". Patriot Act. Secret courts. Permanent state of "national emergency" with attendant curtailment of our Natural Rights, "Surveillance Capitalism", ...)

goatinaboat 7y ago
Which institutions, centers of power, and influential individuals determined that the de-industrialization of United States was such a hot idea and pushed that to its extremes in the 90s? It’s worth remembering that in the 90s, Francis Fukuyama was the hottest philosopher around and there was a general belief that economic liberalisation would inevitably lead a country towards Western style democracy and all that entailed. No one, certainly no one as prominent as Fukuyama ever predicted the opposite would in fact occur. Not that this excuses Apple or anyone else. Once it became apparent they should have acted urgently. Because it meant that all their basic assumptions about how the world works need to be re-evaluated.
- aiscapehumanity 7y ago
  Lol people like baudrilllard, gilles, and guattari had better 21st century predictions then fukuyama. Fukuyama is like the starwars of 90s philosophy, mainstream tripe.
  - goatinaboat 7y ago
    Sure but I didn’t assert he was the greatest philosopher, only the most popular, the star of the show. He has since renounced his 90s work, to be fair.
    - 7y ago

simonh 7y ago

>If the executives at Apple had any foresight and any interest beyond self interest they would have encouraged domestic production As a furriner (Brit) with a Chinese wife the awesome self-absorbed tone deafness here is a sight to behold. Because you know, furriers aren't really people you know, so they just don't count in any rational moral equation. Even for a company with tens of thousands of non-American employees. What right have they got to expect reasonable or fair treatment? Thanks.

javajosh 7y ago
One must take care to distinguish between the Chinese people and their government. I don't think the GP was talking about the people - he was talking about the government. (I have always been impressed with the intelligence, humor and heart of the Chinese people I've known; and yet this makes the authoritarianism of their government even more striking).
- dbuder 7y ago
  Yeah but have you walked around Shanghai and asked random people questions.
- yostrovs 7y ago
  Humor? Really?
  - javajosh 7y ago
    Well, I was last in China around 2005, and I could speak a little Mandarin, and this seemed to delight the people I (tried) to speak with. Once or twice someone bought be a beer, and even the vendors seemed happy to know that I knew how to haggle. I don't know -I just really liked it and felt at home.
computerex 7y ago
I don't even know what point you're trying to make. No one is inherently against the Chinese. People are against the CCP, and their disgusting authoritarian regime.

m10i 7y ago

You didn't mention taxes. Doesn't Apple offshore their earnings as well?

csommers 7y ago

Why would you NOT want to have that hope? Being reliant upon China for anything is a huge no-no.

awinder 7y ago

Yeah, this is a super-weird anti-Apple flex. There’s a lot of problems with it, mostly that damn near every tech product is manufactured in China, or using majority components manufactured in China, etc. But here’s the biggest problem I have. China deliberately wanted to focus on this type of manufacturing for decades. You don’t just decide you’re going to manufacture iPhones and then poof in 6 months you’re running world-class operations. It would take untold time and dollars to develop these capabilities in a human workforce in America. What you’re all hopped up about, has literally no chance of happening. I too have qualms with what is going on in China, but like everything that happens in this life, I’m flipping petrified of how much damage some reactionary american screed might do.

14 7y ago
You do realize how much money Apple makes right? They absolutely have the money to run these capabilities in America. They also have enough money they could do it in a timely manner. What they know would happen is the cost to actually manufacture an iPhone would shoot through the roof and they would be left either making less profit to sell the phone at the same price point it always has been, or they will have to dramatically reduce shareholder return. They don't want to do either of those things obviously because right now new iPhone cost around 1000$ and it is probably close to what the market will bare. So their only option would be reduce shareholder return and I think that is the only thing stopping them from moving home. Simply put they would not make as much profit.
- pwinnski 7y ago
  Is your argument that their manufacturing costs would increase by less than 30%? Or that you expect Apple to fold as a company? You state "they absolutely have the money to run these capabilities in America." Apple's published margin on hardware is 30%, so if manufacturing in America increases costs by 30%, Apple no longer makes a profit selling hardware. If manufacturing increases costs by more than 30%, Apple starts losing money selling hardware. Big numbers are big because Apple is selling many, many, many phones. That also means that adding to the cost of manufacturing by even a small amount per unit immediately chews up a lot of those outrageous profits.

foogazi 7y ago

>a company that has seen fit to extract billions in wealth from developers through their app store This doesn’t make sense - App Store is a voluntary program no one is forced to develop apps for iPhone, or even android