4 ms·

Contrasting this with the shit show that is Catalina and the last 4 years of mbps, I don't think it's controversial to assert that this is where Apple is going

Contrasting this with the shit show that is Catalina and the last 4 years of mbps, I don't think it's controversial to assert that this is where Apple is going long term. I ain't mad. I'm just not interested in sticking around for it. Perhaps I'm falling behind the times...

puranjay 7y ago
I don't really think Apple is serious about power users anymore. The company seems to have embraced the Starbucks crowd fully, leaving serious users dealing with crappy keyboards and increasingly poor operating systems. Whatever hardware they do have to satisfy power users is absurdly priced (Mac Pro). I switched completely to Windows last month and built a PC. It's incredible the kind of hardware you can get for a third of the cost.
- least 7y ago
  It's easy to say this when your definition of 'power user' is based on it meeting your personal use case.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    This notion that programmers have special requirements and that's why they object to a keyboard that breaks after a few months is absurd. This effects anybody who's profession involves typing, and there are no shortage of those.
    - least 7y ago
      A problematic keyboard, sure. The reliability is well beyond what someone might consider acceptable (which is probably why they're rumored to be changing it). That doesn't mean that it's not geared towards power users. It means that there is a flaw in their keyboard's design. What exactly does this have to do with catering towards 'power users?' The aforementioned Mac Pro doesn't come with said flawed keyboard, nor do any of their desktop computers. The other part of his argument is that the operating system is increasingly poor, without really saying why he thinks that is the case.
      - catalogia 7y ago
        The latest OS update has all kinds of breakage that would negatively impact anybody who uses the first party applications extensively (e.g. a "power user".) People have had the Mail app lose their mail, the postcast app lose their podcasts, etc. It's simply a mess for anybody who actually uses their computer instead of looking at it as a fashion accessory. There is no way in hell I'm upgrading for at least a few months and that has nothing to do with the fact that I program.
        least 7y ago
        OS updates are a risk regardless of the platform you're using. You run the risk of breaking something, and Catalina is in particular probably going to break compatibility with something. Just last year with Windows 1809 there was a bug that deleted users' files. If the features don't aren't worth it to your or you're unwilling to back up your data, then you don't need to update it. It's not forced on you. Security patches will still be pushed to Mojave at least until the next major version. I just find it remarkable that you create a dichotomy of either people 'who actually use their computer' or see their computer as a 'fashion accessory.' That's simply not true and is a bad take.
        catalogia 7y ago
        I find my dichotomy a lot less remarkable than "the problems with Macs are only an issue for programmers." Any user who types lots of emails could be suffering but complaints about the circumstance are frequently dismissed on HN with comments to the effect of: "you're a programmer and therefore weird; your needs are weird and therefore your complaints are irrelevant." (Also, comparing anything favorably to windows should be considered damning with faint praise. Windows is notorious for being trash.)
        least 7y ago
        I never made that claim that you're suggesting. What I did imply was that the term 'power user' is broad and just because apple's PCs don't work for a specific individual's use case, it doesn't mean that they're not for power users. It simply means that Apple fails to meet that person's needs. A data scientist reliant on CUDA cores on nvidia hardware won't find a mac very useful because there aren't any current apple computers that have an nvidia card in it. Still, a musician or film editor might find a great workflow with mac hardware.
- PKop 7y ago
  But who is going to develop the apps for the iPad and iPhone if the Mac platform stagnates?
  - nikanj 7y ago
    Money helps here. People were writing software for Windows even during the darkest days of Vista. On a mac or linux, if possible.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    The developers that actually have bought Apple computers to work on Swift and Objective-C, instead of a pretty UNIX to develop GNU/Linux applications.
  - vbezhenar 7y ago
    They can port Xcode to iPad, offload compilation to the cloud and you don't need Mac anymore.
    - PKop 7y ago
      I think the UX of this idea will be bad, just like the UX of the Mac has declined, both resulting in lower developer support for the platform over time. Just a theory. Not sure why Cook wants to test it.
  - acollins1331 7y ago
    Sounds like an apple problem, not a problem of us power users who moved to something better.
    - PKop 7y ago
      My point is Apple, and Cook, should be looking at this as an Apple problem. My question is the question they should be asking themselves.
- vikingcaffiene 7y ago
  The Starbucks crowd about sums it up yeah. Its a luxury brand now. A fashion accessory. No thanks. I dual boot Windows and Pop OS (basically Ubuntu) with my new machine. So far the only thing I miss is the seamless messaging experience that iMessage brought to the table and Logic Pro (I'm using Pro Tools now and I hate it). A MacBook pro of similar specs to what I just bought cost over 4 grand. Double what I ended up paying in other words. Worse, what I get is a broken keyboard, "features" I don't want (touchbar, usb c for all the things, thinness for the sake of it) and a total lack of repair-ability. I specifically picked hardware that is upgrade-able and repairable. My new machine can be broken down and built back up, parts swapped out, etc all without voiding the warranty. All the screws are standard size and easy to replace if you lose one. Stuff like that. Contrast that with Macs with their glued down batteries underneath the motherboard. Its just upsetting to see it go this way after being such a fan for so long. I'd be fine with paying a premium if I was actually getting a premium experience but that's not the case anymore.
danieldk 7y ago
Perhaps I'm falling behind the times... I don't know, weren't iPad sales stagnant for years? [1] Peak iPad was from 2013-2015. It may be that (only) Apple believes that iPad is the future computing platform. [1] https://www.lifewire.com/how-many-ipads-sold-1994296 https://www.lifewire.com/how-many-ipads-sold-1994296
fierarul 7y ago
> “If I were running Apple, I would milk the Macintosh for all it’s worth – and get busy on the next great thing. The PC wars are over. Done. Microsoft won a long time ago.” > ― Steve Jobs
- phs318u 7y ago
  To be fair though, that quote is from 1996 just before the Steve rejoined Apple. He then went on to significantly increase Apple's share of the "PC" market over the next 15 years, creating some iconic models (iMac, MBP, MB-Air). That seems like more than milking it. Recently however ...
  - scarface74 7y ago
    He did exactly what he said he would do. The Mac was the only product Apple had to sustain itself until they could produce more products.

puranjay 7y ago

I don't really think Apple is serious about power users anymore. The company seems to have embraced the Starbucks crowd fully, leaving serious users dealing with crappy keyboards and increasingly poor operating systems. Whatever hardware they do have to satisfy power users is absurdly priced (Mac Pro). I switched completely to Windows last month and built a PC. It's incredible the kind of hardware you can get for a third of the cost.

least 7y ago
It's easy to say this when your definition of 'power user' is based on it meeting your personal use case.
- catalogia 7y ago
  This notion that programmers have special requirements and that's why they object to a keyboard that breaks after a few months is absurd. This effects anybody who's profession involves typing, and there are no shortage of those.
  - least 7y ago
    A problematic keyboard, sure. The reliability is well beyond what someone might consider acceptable (which is probably why they're rumored to be changing it). That doesn't mean that it's not geared towards power users. It means that there is a flaw in their keyboard's design. What exactly does this have to do with catering towards 'power users?' The aforementioned Mac Pro doesn't come with said flawed keyboard, nor do any of their desktop computers. The other part of his argument is that the operating system is increasingly poor, without really saying why he thinks that is the case.
    - catalogia 7y ago
      The latest OS update has all kinds of breakage that would negatively impact anybody who uses the first party applications extensively (e.g. a "power user".) People have had the Mail app lose their mail, the postcast app lose their podcasts, etc. It's simply a mess for anybody who actually uses their computer instead of looking at it as a fashion accessory. There is no way in hell I'm upgrading for at least a few months and that has nothing to do with the fact that I program.
      - least 7y ago
        OS updates are a risk regardless of the platform you're using. You run the risk of breaking something, and Catalina is in particular probably going to break compatibility with something. Just last year with Windows 1809 there was a bug that deleted users' files. If the features don't aren't worth it to your or you're unwilling to back up your data, then you don't need to update it. It's not forced on you. Security patches will still be pushed to Mojave at least until the next major version. I just find it remarkable that you create a dichotomy of either people 'who actually use their computer' or see their computer as a 'fashion accessory.' That's simply not true and is a bad take.
        catalogia 7y ago
        I find my dichotomy a lot less remarkable than "the problems with Macs are only an issue for programmers." Any user who types lots of emails could be suffering but complaints about the circumstance are frequently dismissed on HN with comments to the effect of: "you're a programmer and therefore weird; your needs are weird and therefore your complaints are irrelevant." (Also, comparing anything favorably to windows should be considered damning with faint praise. Windows is notorious for being trash.)
        least 7y ago
        I never made that claim that you're suggesting. What I did imply was that the term 'power user' is broad and just because apple's PCs don't work for a specific individual's use case, it doesn't mean that they're not for power users. It simply means that Apple fails to meet that person's needs. A data scientist reliant on CUDA cores on nvidia hardware won't find a mac very useful because there aren't any current apple computers that have an nvidia card in it. Still, a musician or film editor might find a great workflow with mac hardware.
PKop 7y ago
But who is going to develop the apps for the iPad and iPhone if the Mac platform stagnates?
- nikanj 7y ago
  Money helps here. People were writing software for Windows even during the darkest days of Vista. On a mac or linux, if possible.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  The developers that actually have bought Apple computers to work on Swift and Objective-C, instead of a pretty UNIX to develop GNU/Linux applications.
- vbezhenar 7y ago
  They can port Xcode to iPad, offload compilation to the cloud and you don't need Mac anymore.
  - PKop 7y ago
    I think the UX of this idea will be bad, just like the UX of the Mac has declined, both resulting in lower developer support for the platform over time. Just a theory. Not sure why Cook wants to test it.
- acollins1331 7y ago
  Sounds like an apple problem, not a problem of us power users who moved to something better.
  - PKop 7y ago
    My point is Apple, and Cook, should be looking at this as an Apple problem. My question is the question they should be asking themselves.
vikingcaffiene 7y ago
The Starbucks crowd about sums it up yeah. Its a luxury brand now. A fashion accessory. No thanks. I dual boot Windows and Pop OS (basically Ubuntu) with my new machine. So far the only thing I miss is the seamless messaging experience that iMessage brought to the table and Logic Pro (I'm using Pro Tools now and I hate it). A MacBook pro of similar specs to what I just bought cost over 4 grand. Double what I ended up paying in other words. Worse, what I get is a broken keyboard, "features" I don't want (touchbar, usb c for all the things, thinness for the sake of it) and a total lack of repair-ability. I specifically picked hardware that is upgrade-able and repairable. My new machine can be broken down and built back up, parts swapped out, etc all without voiding the warranty. All the screws are standard size and easy to replace if you lose one. Stuff like that. Contrast that with Macs with their glued down batteries underneath the motherboard. Its just upsetting to see it go this way after being such a fan for so long. I'd be fine with paying a premium if I was actually getting a premium experience but that's not the case anymore.

danieldk 7y ago

Perhaps I'm falling behind the times... I don't know, weren't iPad sales stagnant for years? [1] Peak iPad was from 2013-2015. It may be that (only) Apple believes that iPad is the future computing platform. [1] https://www.lifewire.com/how-many-ipads-sold-1994296 https://www.lifewire.com/how-many-ipads-sold-1994296

fierarul 7y ago

> “If I were running Apple, I would milk the Macintosh for all it’s worth – and get busy on the next great thing. The PC wars are over. Done. Microsoft won a long time ago.” > ― Steve Jobs

phs318u 7y ago
To be fair though, that quote is from 1996 just before the Steve rejoined Apple. He then went on to significantly increase Apple's share of the "PC" market over the next 15 years, creating some iconic models (iMac, MBP, MB-Air). That seems like more than milking it. Recently however ...
- scarface74 7y ago
  He did exactly what he said he would do. The Mac was the only product Apple had to sustain itself until they could produce more products.