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Which is honestly a shame, because Telegram the messenger is freaking amazing. Probably the best instant messaging experience of my whole life. If only Pavel

Which is honestly a shame, because Telegram the messenger is freaking amazing. Probably the best instant messaging experience of my whole life. If only Pavel “Pashka” Durov decided to fund the company with something less scammy. Like a premium version with VPN and maybe some additional features like even bigger file uploads. I would be among the first clients.

m12k 7y ago
It's the only IM app that does notifications right. I get a message and 'unread messages' notifications pop up on both my computers and my phone - the moment I click to focus the app on one of them, the notifications on the other computer and phone go away. With other apps it seems there's always a risk that a notification marker is just a leftover from before that they forgot to clear - that's never the case with Telegram.
- ainar-g 7y ago
  Don't forget about drafts being synced between devices. I remember the first time I've noticed that: “Wait, didn't I write this on my phone? Why is this in my desktop client?”
  - lucb1e 7y ago
    That's actually the only feature that has a bug (the rest works flawlessly): when I connect my phone to the internet after I started writing a message, even if I have the chat open and I'm actively typing and internet just connects in the background, then it'll literally erase what I typed so far with no warning or anything. It'll see that the server has no draft or an empty draft or something, and it'll just get rid of my message so far and there is no way of getting it back. Well, to be fair, there is also this other minor bug about encryption being off by default and only available on a few clients and not synchronizing between different encryption-supporting clients...
    - eitland 7y ago
      > Well, to be fair, there is also this other minor bug about encryption being off by default and only available on a few clients and not synchronizing between different encryption-supporting clients... Here we go again. Encryption is not off by default. It is just not E2E encrypted, i.e. it works just like any bank, Gmail etc etc etc. (except, based on what I've heard Telegram, unlike any mainstream bank, put the extra effort in to keep encryption keys not only on separate servers but in a different jurisdiction than your messages.) Edit: Now if we could stop spreading misinformation we could discuss one thing that might be the real flaw in Telegrams model and which I would consider trying to move to a different messenger over - if they fixed it while delivering the same experience: The one huge issue I have with Telegram is the funding model. Whatsapp more or less nailed this early on: - low, reasonable price that still made them plenty profit - possibility to pay for others (kids, friends etc) Give me the same offer as Whatsapp once gave me: I pay them, they deliver my messages, provide quality clients on all platforms, doesn't snoop, doesn't spam etc, and I'll download the beta today. Provide a legally binding agreement that makes their company worthless and publishes the code under Apache or another liberal[0] license somehow if they sell out or becomes sleazy and I'll be walking around pondering how to help them. [0]: yep, I want it to be as simple as possible to make a good chunk of cash from transporting my messages securely and elegantly from my device to other peoples devices as well as the other way.
      - ryanlol 7y ago
        Telegram has shipped deliberate backdoors in the past, they can’t possibly be trusted https://m.habr.com/en/post/206900/ https://m.habr.com/en/post/206900/
        eitland 7y ago
        I can't read Russian well enough to understand that ;-) What I know however is that I can't recall anyone except you[0] claiming that, not even tptacek. [0]: Thought I remembered your nick and had to look up: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Ryanlol+Telegram+site%3Anews.ycombinator.com&t=fpas&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Ryanlol+Telegram+site%3Anews.ycomb...
- arifmeticus 7y ago
  Some features, like syncing and group chats can be made more convenient in Telegram because it is not e2e encrypted. For me that doesn't feel like a very good long term compromise.
  - newscracker 7y ago
    Wire (wire.com) has E2E encryption and syncs chats and group chats across devices. It’s not the best experience, has slow clients and the company (Wire) is focused on paying clients, but it mostly works with few nagging annoyances. I wish Telegram would adopt something like that and make E2E encryption the standard for all chats.
- samtheprogram 7y ago
  The only other app I know of that is this stable is iMessage. Some of the time (literally) Slack gets it right, but other times their notifications are outright broken.
noobermin 7y ago
I hope this isn't too much of an aside, but this is part of why this current way of doing things isn't sustainable. Although telegram is end-to-end encrypted and isn't really comparable to IRC, IRC, while waning in popularity still works because it's a tool. If telegram can't get funding then what happens to its users?
- newscracker 7y ago
  Did you mean to say “isn’t” with respect to end-to-end encryption? Telegram chats are, by default, not end-to-end encrypted. Only if you choose to have a “secret chat” with one person it is end-to-end encrypted.
- commandersaki 7y ago
  It’s only end to end encrypted if you opt-in. For a modern messaging solution, end to end encryption should be mandatory.
- ryanlol 7y ago
  Telegram generally isn’t end-to-end encrypted, and when it is it’s backdoored https://m.habr.com/en/post/206900/ https://m.habr.com/en/post/206900/
baby 7y ago
It’s an insecure messaging app though. Good UX, but there are stronger alternatives like wire/whatsapp/signal.
- newscracker 7y ago
  I use Wire and Signal. Honestly, there’s no point even comparing Signal with Telegram. The Signal client and the platform are abysmal — slow, unreliable (can’t say if the message will get delivered and when), generates device change notifications at random when nothing has changed, still can’t backup and restore chats on iOS, changing a device means jumping through hoops to join groups again, etc. In my usage, Signal is the antithesis of chat UX, though it has been improving very slowly over time. Wire is a decent alternative since it also syncs chats across devices, but its clients are slow. Any chat with images will usually crawl when you scroll. The company also doesn’t care about free users (not that it should) and so it probably makes sense only for people who’re willing to pay. WhatsApp shares metadata with Facebook. So it’s a complete non-starter.
- skinnymuch 7y ago
  Telegram has many features way beyond everything you mentioned. Telegram comes out ahead if you’re talking about non privacy related end user features. Even with WhatsApp, WhatsApp is limited to one mobile device. It’s desktop interface is weaker than Telegram’s and is a web interface. Needs syncing with mobile sometimes. Telegram has other nice things like the quick video 1 min memos. Signal is so much more inferior for the end user outside of privacy there’s no reason to discuss it.
- Stubb 7y ago
  Insecure against what? These days, I'm more concerned about corporations data mining my private messages than government snooping, and I'm confident that Telegram accomplishes that. I'd use different messaging if I was concerned about state-level actors. Much of picking a messaging system comes down to realistically assessing your threat model.

m12k 7y ago

It's the only IM app that does notifications right. I get a message and 'unread messages' notifications pop up on both my computers and my phone - the moment I click to focus the app on one of them, the notifications on the other computer and phone go away. With other apps it seems there's always a risk that a notification marker is just a leftover from before that they forgot to clear - that's never the case with Telegram.

ainar-g 7y ago
Don't forget about drafts being synced between devices. I remember the first time I've noticed that: “Wait, didn't I write this on my phone? Why is this in my desktop client?”
- lucb1e 7y ago
  That's actually the only feature that has a bug (the rest works flawlessly): when I connect my phone to the internet after I started writing a message, even if I have the chat open and I'm actively typing and internet just connects in the background, then it'll literally erase what I typed so far with no warning or anything. It'll see that the server has no draft or an empty draft or something, and it'll just get rid of my message so far and there is no way of getting it back. Well, to be fair, there is also this other minor bug about encryption being off by default and only available on a few clients and not synchronizing between different encryption-supporting clients...
  - eitland 7y ago
    > Well, to be fair, there is also this other minor bug about encryption being off by default and only available on a few clients and not synchronizing between different encryption-supporting clients... Here we go again. Encryption is not off by default. It is just not E2E encrypted, i.e. it works just like any bank, Gmail etc etc etc. (except, based on what I've heard Telegram, unlike any mainstream bank, put the extra effort in to keep encryption keys not only on separate servers but in a different jurisdiction than your messages.) Edit: Now if we could stop spreading misinformation we could discuss one thing that might be the real flaw in Telegrams model and which I would consider trying to move to a different messenger over - if they fixed it while delivering the same experience: The one huge issue I have with Telegram is the funding model. Whatsapp more or less nailed this early on: - low, reasonable price that still made them plenty profit - possibility to pay for others (kids, friends etc) Give me the same offer as Whatsapp once gave me: I pay them, they deliver my messages, provide quality clients on all platforms, doesn't snoop, doesn't spam etc, and I'll download the beta today. Provide a legally binding agreement that makes their company worthless and publishes the code under Apache or another liberal[0] license somehow if they sell out or becomes sleazy and I'll be walking around pondering how to help them. [0]: yep, I want it to be as simple as possible to make a good chunk of cash from transporting my messages securely and elegantly from my device to other peoples devices as well as the other way.
    - ryanlol 7y ago
      Telegram has shipped deliberate backdoors in the past, they can’t possibly be trusted https://m.habr.com/en/post/206900/ https://m.habr.com/en/post/206900/
      - eitland 7y ago
        I can't read Russian well enough to understand that ;-) What I know however is that I can't recall anyone except you[0] claiming that, not even tptacek. [0]: Thought I remembered your nick and had to look up: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Ryanlol+Telegram+site%3Anews.ycombinator.com&t=fpas&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Ryanlol+Telegram+site%3Anews.ycomb...
arifmeticus 7y ago
Some features, like syncing and group chats can be made more convenient in Telegram because it is not e2e encrypted. For me that doesn't feel like a very good long term compromise.
- newscracker 7y ago
  Wire (wire.com) has E2E encryption and syncs chats and group chats across devices. It’s not the best experience, has slow clients and the company (Wire) is focused on paying clients, but it mostly works with few nagging annoyances. I wish Telegram would adopt something like that and make E2E encryption the standard for all chats.
samtheprogram 7y ago
The only other app I know of that is this stable is iMessage. Some of the time (literally) Slack gets it right, but other times their notifications are outright broken.

noobermin 7y ago

I hope this isn't too much of an aside, but this is part of why this current way of doing things isn't sustainable. Although telegram is end-to-end encrypted and isn't really comparable to IRC, IRC, while waning in popularity still works because it's a tool. If telegram can't get funding then what happens to its users?

newscracker 7y ago
Did you mean to say “isn’t” with respect to end-to-end encryption? Telegram chats are, by default, not end-to-end encrypted. Only if you choose to have a “secret chat” with one person it is end-to-end encrypted.
commandersaki 7y ago
It’s only end to end encrypted if you opt-in. For a modern messaging solution, end to end encryption should be mandatory.
ryanlol 7y ago
Telegram generally isn’t end-to-end encrypted, and when it is it’s backdoored https://m.habr.com/en/post/206900/ https://m.habr.com/en/post/206900/

baby 7y ago

It’s an insecure messaging app though. Good UX, but there are stronger alternatives like wire/whatsapp/signal.

newscracker 7y ago
I use Wire and Signal. Honestly, there’s no point even comparing Signal with Telegram. The Signal client and the platform are abysmal — slow, unreliable (can’t say if the message will get delivered and when), generates device change notifications at random when nothing has changed, still can’t backup and restore chats on iOS, changing a device means jumping through hoops to join groups again, etc. In my usage, Signal is the antithesis of chat UX, though it has been improving very slowly over time. Wire is a decent alternative since it also syncs chats across devices, but its clients are slow. Any chat with images will usually crawl when you scroll. The company also doesn’t care about free users (not that it should) and so it probably makes sense only for people who’re willing to pay. WhatsApp shares metadata with Facebook. So it’s a complete non-starter.
skinnymuch 7y ago
Telegram has many features way beyond everything you mentioned. Telegram comes out ahead if you’re talking about non privacy related end user features. Even with WhatsApp, WhatsApp is limited to one mobile device. It’s desktop interface is weaker than Telegram’s and is a web interface. Needs syncing with mobile sometimes. Telegram has other nice things like the quick video 1 min memos. Signal is so much more inferior for the end user outside of privacy there’s no reason to discuss it.
Stubb 7y ago
Insecure against what? These days, I'm more concerned about corporations data mining my private messages than government snooping, and I'm confident that Telegram accomplishes that. I'd use different messaging if I was concerned about state-level actors. Much of picking a messaging system comes down to realistically assessing your threat model.