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David Marcus update [1] : Special thanks to @Visa and @Mastercard for sticking it out until the 11th hour. The pressure has been intense (understatement), and

David Marcus update [1] : Special thanks to @Visa and @Mastercard for sticking it out until the 11th hour. The pressure has been intense (understatement), and I respect their decision to wait until there’s regulatory clarity for @Libra_ to proceed, vs. the invoked threats (by many) on their biz. I would caution against reading the fate of Libra into this update. Of course, it’s not great news in the short term, but in a way it’s liberating. Stay tuned for more very soon. Change of this magnitude is hard. You know you’re on to something when so much pressure builds up. [1]https://twitter.com/davidmarcus/status/1182775728431087623 https://twitter.com/davidmarcus/status/1182775728431087623

throwawaysunday 7y ago
What are you talking about it isn't great news. It is fantastic news for most people, who honestly do not want their money being controlled and monitored by the whims of those who run a social media company, with a history of not putting customers first. Any financial institution wanting to be on the right side of history should run, not walk from this project. That isn't to say there is no place in the future for purely electronic currency, but it sure hell better not be this. Change of this magnitude is hard because frankly... black mirror
throwaway2048 7y ago
This is good for libra(coin)?
- sremani 7y ago
  He is re-framing it to "when the times get tough the tough get going" mode. Its also a signal, that they are going to move forward what ever that is. Good or Bad, its hard to tell for the project but at least you are left with the feeling that Libra team is formidable and preparing to weather the storm. If I have to guess, something is going to come out it from this project, either a policy clarity from governments or while tinkering Libra team may pivot into some useful use case etc.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    > "Its also a signal, that they are going to move forward what ever that is" In much the same way that your keys are always in the last place you look, the last thing people say before "I give up" is often "I'm going to keep going." I expect Libra to be officially dead by the end of the year, although Facebook might slap the name onto some unrelated project in an attempt to save face.
    - baby 7y ago
      We’ll see about this :)
- kebman 7y ago
  Well, I don't know about that, but it's certainly good for the world. :)
  - chris_wot 7y ago
    I disagree. I cannot trust anything related to Facebook.
    - john_minsk 7y ago
      Why is that? Potentially they have a lot of power, but did they exercise it in a wrong way in public so far? I don’t think so
      - plange 7y ago
        http://www.salimvirani.com/facebook/ http://www.salimvirani.com/facebook/ https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/23/facebook-releases-new-cambridge-analytica-documents.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/23/facebook-releases-new-cambri... http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jul/06/we-shouldnt-expect-facebook-to-behave-ethically http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jul/06/we-shouldn...
hos234 7y ago
"Too big to innovate"
john_moscow 7y ago
The fate of Libra isn't tied to Visa/Mastercard's withdrawal. It's ultimately about whether there is a market for a new mechanism for international money transfers. As someone who runs a business that has (small) offices both in EU and North America, let me share a quick overview of the current state of things. When you want to transfer a non-trivial amount of money between 2 countries, you have likely received it in the originating country's currency and are planning to spend it in the destination currency. Now because you don't want to pay ~3% currency exchange fees to your bank, the only reasonable way to do this is to get an account with a business forex broker, that will offer you a rate in the ballpark of 0.5% off the spot price. You will have to do the KYC/AML [0], but the complexity of the whole transfer is basically this: 1. Do a domestic wire to your broker's office in the originating economic zone. 2. Wait for them to call you and confirm the exchange rate. 3. Receive a domestic wire from the broker's office in the destination economic zone. You often need to show the invoices/contracts showing the origin of the funds and the purpose of the transfer, but if you are running a legitimate business that pays taxes, you will need those for accounting reasons anyway. Now the 0.5% fee charged by the forex trader (that is bound to a bunch of rules and regulations making it harder for it to run away with your funds) is not worth putting your trust into a fully automated distributed ledger, where a lost password or a hacked computer could permanently eat away your money without any legal recourse. So the only potential audience of a new international coin would be people actively trying to evade KYC/AML and that's exactly why the governments will do their best to prevent it from getting adoption (which is very easy since you can outright ban the fiat endpoints in your jurisdiction). On the other end, there's a bunch of people who have never written a response to an AML inquiry and have hardly done any business outside of their own state, that are hoping to get rich quick by grabbing a stake at something they haven't fully researched and later reselling it at a profit to someone who will actually need it. I wouldn't see any reason for it to be successful long-term, sorry. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer
- lyqwyd 7y ago
  What do you consider non-trivial? I transfer money to Africa on a regular basis, and I don’t have these same issues other than the difference between published exchange rate and realized, which is about 1-1.5%. Transfer fees are minimal. I transfer about $3,000 per month, but no I could go up to at least $10K without issue. Occasionally it can have a bit of a delay, but normally it closes in less than a minute, and I get email and text updates on the status, no calls needed.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Y2WATERMARK 7y ago
Here's the reply from Nick Szabo: "You might want to ask yourself why the pressure has been so intense. And read some history that Bitcoin pioneers were aware of, for example the failure of e-gold. Your failure to learn from history has caused you to at great cost recapitulate the failures of the past.": https://twitter.com/NickSzabo4/status/1182776582932332544?s=20 https://twitter.com/NickSzabo4/status/1182776582932332544?s=...
- quibbler 7y ago
  Wish he would elaborate. I don't really know what he means. What did Bitcoin do to reduce the pressure?
- buboard 7y ago
  Whenever i read those highly derisive comments (de facto banned vaporware) , it's time to ignore those threads. Money truly makes people rage, and it's ugly to see it in written form. Crypto has ways to until its people learn to act civil
Illniyar 7y ago
Since Libra isn't distributed, in the sense that anyone can start mining it, one of the key premises for its trust was that governance and operation will be handled by a group of powerful and trustworthy companies. The more companies leave the initiative the more centralized it becomes and the less its trust model is valid. If only Facebook remains it isn't any different than a simple virtual currency (like the discontinued Facebook Credits). And to preempt the argument that visa and mastercard aren't trustworthy - there is an inherent trust that most people give to big companies because their processes and checks and balances developed over years to be robust - usually from having to handle lawsuits and regulations which small companies rarely do.
- WC3w6pXxgGd 7y ago
  " If only Facebook remains it isn't any different than a simple virtual currency" Regardless, it never was different than a simple virtual currency, unless it's truly decentralized, which was never in the cards.
- keymone 7y ago
  > powerful and trustworthy companies That’s an oxymoron in general, but also specifically, did you just say Facebook is trustworthy? O_o Low quality comment, I know, I just couldn’t resist.
- thefounder 7y ago
  What people want is a stable currency that they can use where ever they want. That means at atm/mfm machines, pos, internet and p2p. They couldn't care less if visa/mastercard or JPMorgan is behind it. The issue is that without visa/mastercard is hard to convince banks and merchants to accept this new currency.
  - te_chris 7y ago
    You mean like the eur, usd, aud, nzd, gbp, jpy? That sort of stable and reliable currency with a strong banking infrastructure?
onetimemanytime 7y ago
Both USGOV and EU countries are against it. You would have to be stupid to poke the bear in the eye after being warned.
jamesmmm 7y ago
Indeed: Peter Thiel says that when you're doing something right, expect tons of opposition! Best Of Luck ;o)

throwawaysunday 7y ago

What are you talking about it isn't great news. It is fantastic news for most people, who honestly do not want their money being controlled and monitored by the whims of those who run a social media company, with a history of not putting customers first. Any financial institution wanting to be on the right side of history should run, not walk from this project. That isn't to say there is no place in the future for purely electronic currency, but it sure hell better not be this. Change of this magnitude is hard because frankly... black mirror

throwaway2048 7y ago

This is good for libra(coin)?

sremani 7y ago
He is re-framing it to "when the times get tough the tough get going" mode. Its also a signal, that they are going to move forward what ever that is. Good or Bad, its hard to tell for the project but at least you are left with the feeling that Libra team is formidable and preparing to weather the storm. If I have to guess, something is going to come out it from this project, either a policy clarity from governments or while tinkering Libra team may pivot into some useful use case etc.
- catalogia 7y ago
  > "Its also a signal, that they are going to move forward what ever that is" In much the same way that your keys are always in the last place you look, the last thing people say before "I give up" is often "I'm going to keep going." I expect Libra to be officially dead by the end of the year, although Facebook might slap the name onto some unrelated project in an attempt to save face.
  - baby 7y ago
    We’ll see about this :)
kebman 7y ago
Well, I don't know about that, but it's certainly good for the world. :)
- chris_wot 7y ago
  I disagree. I cannot trust anything related to Facebook.
  - john_minsk 7y ago
    Why is that? Potentially they have a lot of power, but did they exercise it in a wrong way in public so far? I don’t think so
    - plange 7y ago
      http://www.salimvirani.com/facebook/ http://www.salimvirani.com/facebook/ https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/23/facebook-releases-new-cambridge-analytica-documents.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/23/facebook-releases-new-cambri... http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jul/06/we-shouldnt-expect-facebook-to-behave-ethically http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jul/06/we-shouldn...

hos234 7y ago

"Too big to innovate"

john_moscow 7y ago

The fate of Libra isn't tied to Visa/Mastercard's withdrawal. It's ultimately about whether there is a market for a new mechanism for international money transfers. As someone who runs a business that has (small) offices both in EU and North America, let me share a quick overview of the current state of things. When you want to transfer a non-trivial amount of money between 2 countries, you have likely received it in the originating country's currency and are planning to spend it in the destination currency. Now because you don't want to pay ~3% currency exchange fees to your bank, the only reasonable way to do this is to get an account with a business forex broker, that will offer you a rate in the ballpark of 0.5% off the spot price. You will have to do the KYC/AML [0], but the complexity of the whole transfer is basically this: 1. Do a domestic wire to your broker's office in the originating economic zone. 2. Wait for them to call you and confirm the exchange rate. 3. Receive a domestic wire from the broker's office in the destination economic zone. You often need to show the invoices/contracts showing the origin of the funds and the purpose of the transfer, but if you are running a legitimate business that pays taxes, you will need those for accounting reasons anyway. Now the 0.5% fee charged by the forex trader (that is bound to a bunch of rules and regulations making it harder for it to run away with your funds) is not worth putting your trust into a fully automated distributed ledger, where a lost password or a hacked computer could permanently eat away your money without any legal recourse. So the only potential audience of a new international coin would be people actively trying to evade KYC/AML and that's exactly why the governments will do their best to prevent it from getting adoption (which is very easy since you can outright ban the fiat endpoints in your jurisdiction). On the other end, there's a bunch of people who have never written a response to an AML inquiry and have hardly done any business outside of their own state, that are hoping to get rich quick by grabbing a stake at something they haven't fully researched and later reselling it at a profit to someone who will actually need it. I wouldn't see any reason for it to be successful long-term, sorry. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer

lyqwyd 7y ago
What do you consider non-trivial? I transfer money to Africa on a regular basis, and I don’t have these same issues other than the difference between published exchange rate and realized, which is about 1-1.5%. Transfer fees are minimal. I transfer about $3,000 per month, but no I could go up to at least $10K without issue. Occasionally it can have a bit of a delay, but normally it closes in less than a minute, and I get email and text updates on the status, no calls needed.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Y2WATERMARK 7y ago

Here's the reply from Nick Szabo: "You might want to ask yourself why the pressure has been so intense. And read some history that Bitcoin pioneers were aware of, for example the failure of e-gold. Your failure to learn from history has caused you to at great cost recapitulate the failures of the past.": https://twitter.com/NickSzabo4/status/1182776582932332544?s=20 https://twitter.com/NickSzabo4/status/1182776582932332544?s=...

quibbler 7y ago
Wish he would elaborate. I don't really know what he means. What did Bitcoin do to reduce the pressure?
buboard 7y ago
Whenever i read those highly derisive comments (de facto banned vaporware) , it's time to ignore those threads. Money truly makes people rage, and it's ugly to see it in written form. Crypto has ways to until its people learn to act civil

Illniyar 7y ago

Since Libra isn't distributed, in the sense that anyone can start mining it, one of the key premises for its trust was that governance and operation will be handled by a group of powerful and trustworthy companies. The more companies leave the initiative the more centralized it becomes and the less its trust model is valid. If only Facebook remains it isn't any different than a simple virtual currency (like the discontinued Facebook Credits). And to preempt the argument that visa and mastercard aren't trustworthy - there is an inherent trust that most people give to big companies because their processes and checks and balances developed over years to be robust - usually from having to handle lawsuits and regulations which small companies rarely do.

WC3w6pXxgGd 7y ago
" If only Facebook remains it isn't any different than a simple virtual currency" Regardless, it never was different than a simple virtual currency, unless it's truly decentralized, which was never in the cards.
keymone 7y ago
> powerful and trustworthy companies That’s an oxymoron in general, but also specifically, did you just say Facebook is trustworthy? O_o Low quality comment, I know, I just couldn’t resist.
thefounder 7y ago
What people want is a stable currency that they can use where ever they want. That means at atm/mfm machines, pos, internet and p2p. They couldn't care less if visa/mastercard or JPMorgan is behind it. The issue is that without visa/mastercard is hard to convince banks and merchants to accept this new currency.
- te_chris 7y ago
  You mean like the eur, usd, aud, nzd, gbp, jpy? That sort of stable and reliable currency with a strong banking infrastructure?

onetimemanytime 7y ago

Both USGOV and EU countries are against it. You would have to be stupid to poke the bear in the eye after being warned.

jamesmmm 7y ago

Indeed: Peter Thiel says that when you're doing something right, expect tons of opposition! Best Of Luck ;o)