4 ms·
Your first quote is interesting, as that definition fits quite well collectible items. As the brand grows the value of the collectible also grows, and the colle
by snagglegaggle 7y ago
Your first quote is interesting, as that definition fits quite well collectible items. As the brand grows the value of the collectible also grows, and the collectible is purchased to make profit (or can be purchased to make profit; maybe I do the reverse and by GRAM just for the fuzzy feeling it gives me). Yet we do not see such actions taken against companies that produce collectibles.
This is probably because when adding the second, you see there is a major theme of profit redistribution. In all of those cases profit is collected centrally and then redistributed. With a collectible or a token such as gram it is not -- the item may become more valuable, partially due to activities of the creator, but it is not a profit sharing scheme.
So... do Telegram's tokens grant you some definite share of their future profits? You're giving them money, but there is no legal recourse to claim a return from what I can see.
- milankragujevic 7y agoCollectibles are not exclusively purchased to be resold at a higher price ad infinitum. They are at least physical items.
- snagglegaggle 7y agoA large number of people "invest" in collectibles only to resell them for a higher price. See: beany babies, trading card games, figurines, dolls. Just like those items tokens can be owned though their representation isn't much to look at. I'm not sure that is a useful distinction, unless you can explain further? E.g. why doesn't it apply to intellectual property? I keep getting downvoted -- I'm not arguing that Telegram has a workable business plan, just that this isn't really something the SEC can regulate.
- milankragujevic 7y agoYou can put collectibles on a shelf to impress likeminded friends. Or to feel happy. You can only trade securities and other similar assets. Also, generally if everyone bought figures to resell... I dont know how that can work... There is always an "unlucky fool" who buys from "scalpers" and keeps the item.
- derefr 7y agoHow about virtual collectibles in MMOs?
- milankragujevic 7y agoIf purchased to resell, then yes it should be and already is mostly made illegal/breach of TOS. People can buy things to enjoy, not just to resell.
- flyGuyOnTheSly 7y ago>Collectibles are not exclusively purchased to be resold at a higher price ad infinitum. Neither is crypto. I use it to buy real things all the time. Usually at a significant price discount, to boot!
- milankragujevic 7y agoCryptocurrency. This is about crypto tokens.
- wmf 7y agoIn this case the SEC mentioned that there is nothing you can buy with Grams and there won't be for the near future. All you could do with Grams is trade them on exchanges.
- Animats 7y agoCollectables usually fail the "common enterprise" prong of the Howey test. Unless the operator is manipulating the market. Then, trouble. "In a fraudulent business scheme based upon the secret and dramatic manipulation of collectible stamp values, Escala and its former CEO, Manning, violated the antifraud and reporting provisions of the Exchange Act...."[1] [1] https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2009/comp20965.pdf https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2009/comp20965.pdf
- AlexCoventry 7y agoI'm not a lawyer, but I think if you marketed a collectible as valuable to US residents because its price will rise due to your efforts to promote the associated brand, you would come under SEC jurisdiction by passing the Howey test.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago> So... do Telegram's tokens grant you some definite share of their future profits? Effectively, yes. People who buy these contracts are funding the development of the TON Network. The promised reward is in the form of digital coins on that yet-to-be-developed network. The contract only pays off if Telegram's development succeeds. It's effectively an investment in Telegram.
- snagglegaggle 7y agoSo it sounds like a kickstarter. Does the SEC regulate those? Realize the IRS has ruled cryptocurrency isn't any different than property. It looks like they claim they are allowed to (https://www.sec.gov/smallbusiness/exemptofferings/regcrowdfunding https://www.sec.gov/smallbusiness/exemptofferings/regcrowdfu...) but at the same time in various businesses it is normal to take the money before a thing is built, that's just usually how it has to work.
- theamk 7y agoIf someone would make a kickstarter that'd promise money returns, then yes, SEC would get involved.
- snagglegaggle 7y agoYeah, and Telegram doesn't promise any return as far as I can tell.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y agoTelegram promises Grams (digital coins), to be delivered once the TON network is operational. Telegram even projects what the price of a Gram will be on the market. This is a vehicle for investing in Telegram's business. If you buy this contract, you're giving Telegram money, which they promise to use to develop a new service. They promise to give you a cut of the value created by that new service. This is very much like a stock offering.
- 7y ago