5 ms·

Does Telegram have assets in the USA to stop or otherwise punish them? I don't see how the SEC could otherwise do anything about it.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
The USA, especially in the area of financial regulations has a very, very long reach.
- csours 7y ago
  I agree. Basically if you use US Dollars then US regulators consider you under their jurisdiction, because they can stop you from using US Dollars by limiting other entities (banks, payment processors) dealings with you.
- ttsda 7y ago
  Telegram as a corporation seems very determined to evade that reach, and appears to have the resources to pull it off.
  - emilfihlman 7y ago
    Exactly this. Given how they have evaded Russia for a long time now, Murica must have something else in their assets to exert control over them.
    - RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
      Basically to evade American reach, you need to have support from Russia and/or China. If you don't have that support, you are going to have a very hard time.
      - threeseed 7y ago
        And Russia and China are hardly the type of countries who are keen to support a secure messaging platform.
        favorited 7y ago
        Let's not pretend the United States government supports them either. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/10/the-broken-record-why-barrs-call-against-end-to-end-encryption-is-nuts/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/10/the-broken-recor...
        haimez 7y ago
        How about we not pretend that Russia, China, and the US are playing the same game either?
        ryanlol 7y ago
        Which, FWIW is exactly why Telegram doesn’t even try to be a secure messaging platform. https://m.habr.com/en/post/206900/ https://m.habr.com/en/post/206900/
    - jacksnipe 7y ago
      It seems to me that the US gov’t wouldn’t have a hard time getting Apple to remove Telegram from the App Store. That seems like a pretty awful scenario for them.
      - capableweb 7y ago
        Not really, Telegram works as a web app and also, not that many people in the world actually use iPhones (at least outside of the US. In the US though, more people use iPhone than Android it seems)
        threeseed 7y ago
        1+ billion iPhones are in use worldwide with more people having them in China than the US. And the idea that people are going to simply switch from an iOS app to a web app is pretty laughable. Mobile web apps are by and large terrible experiences.
        capableweb 7y ago
        Everything I can find on it, seems that Apple and iOS has around 10-25% market share and units shipped[1][2][3][4] In China specifically, it seems to be around 20%[5] And the idea of real people, having a real need for something in this very moment, is gonna care if they use a iOS app or a web app is pretty laughable too. Even with a worse user experience. - 1) https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/ https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share... - 2) https://www.statista.com/statistics/271496/global-market-share-held-by-smartphone-vendors-since-4th-quarter-2009/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/271496/global-market-sha... - 3) https://gs.statcounter.com/vendor-market-share/mobile https://gs.statcounter.com/vendor-market-share/mobile - 4) https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide - 5) https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/china https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/china There is more over at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste... as well that shows around the same number above too.
    - ryanlol 7y ago
      This is a lie. Telegram has not evaded Russia, has continuously lied about not having staff in .ru. These aren’t honest people, on telegram.org they still continue to push lies about the “secure” and “encrypted” nature of telegram.
- emilfihlman 7y ago
  That's very true, I'm just wondering what buttons will they push to do that here given Telegram's background.
  - anonuser123456 7y ago
    They instruct financial institutions world wide to cease processing transactions to/from telegram and freeze their accounts or lose access to the US banking system and risk having their assets frozen.
  - AzzieElbab 7y ago
    Pressure Apple and Google to remove the app from their stores?
    - notsrg 7y ago
      At least on Android, Telegram is available via Fdroid: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.telegram.messenger/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.telegram.messenger/
      - bdcravens 7y ago
        What percentage of Android users, or to be generous, Telegram users, are running Fdroid?
        emilfihlman 7y ago
        If you block Telegram from the Play store, suddenly most of them.
        imsesaok 7y ago
        it's not a huge investment, and does not cost any money; market share really doesn't matter here when you can get in easily. you also can download the app on their website without installing their store app. also keep in mind that telegram definitely can distribute their app on their website, like they do with desktop apps.
sp332 7y ago
The statement says they're preventing Telegram from selling into US markets. They've already sold over one billion "grams" here, so presumably it would hurt Telegram's plans quite a bit to lose the US market entirely.
stevespang 7y ago
EXACTLY. Good luck enforcing it SEC. Pavel and his team have so far successfully eluded Russian agents hopscothching all over the world, I assume any judgement the SEC obtains will be civil in nature, but nonetheless the SEC will likely attempt to criminalize something so they can get a Interpol warrant and make life more difficult for Telegram, in the same manner as Snowden. Indeed, when the perceived threat is offshore you can always make shit up and get the powers to be to rubber stamp it . . .

RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago

The USA, especially in the area of financial regulations has a very, very long reach.

csours 7y ago
I agree. Basically if you use US Dollars then US regulators consider you under their jurisdiction, because they can stop you from using US Dollars by limiting other entities (banks, payment processors) dealings with you.
ttsda 7y ago
Telegram as a corporation seems very determined to evade that reach, and appears to have the resources to pull it off.
- emilfihlman 7y ago
  Exactly this. Given how they have evaded Russia for a long time now, Murica must have something else in their assets to exert control over them.
  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
    Basically to evade American reach, you need to have support from Russia and/or China. If you don't have that support, you are going to have a very hard time.
    - threeseed 7y ago
      And Russia and China are hardly the type of countries who are keen to support a secure messaging platform.
      - favorited 7y ago
        Let's not pretend the United States government supports them either. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/10/the-broken-record-why-barrs-call-against-end-to-end-encryption-is-nuts/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/10/the-broken-recor...
        haimez 7y ago
        How about we not pretend that Russia, China, and the US are playing the same game either?
      - ryanlol 7y ago
        Which, FWIW is exactly why Telegram doesn’t even try to be a secure messaging platform. https://m.habr.com/en/post/206900/ https://m.habr.com/en/post/206900/
  - jacksnipe 7y ago
    It seems to me that the US gov’t wouldn’t have a hard time getting Apple to remove Telegram from the App Store. That seems like a pretty awful scenario for them.
    - capableweb 7y ago
      Not really, Telegram works as a web app and also, not that many people in the world actually use iPhones (at least outside of the US. In the US though, more people use iPhone than Android it seems)
      - threeseed 7y ago
        1+ billion iPhones are in use worldwide with more people having them in China than the US. And the idea that people are going to simply switch from an iOS app to a web app is pretty laughable. Mobile web apps are by and large terrible experiences.
        capableweb 7y ago
        Everything I can find on it, seems that Apple and iOS has around 10-25% market share and units shipped[1][2][3][4] In China specifically, it seems to be around 20%[5] And the idea of real people, having a real need for something in this very moment, is gonna care if they use a iOS app or a web app is pretty laughable too. Even with a worse user experience. - 1) https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share/ https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share... - 2) https://www.statista.com/statistics/271496/global-market-share-held-by-smartphone-vendors-since-4th-quarter-2009/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/271496/global-market-sha... - 3) https://gs.statcounter.com/vendor-market-share/mobile https://gs.statcounter.com/vendor-market-share/mobile - 4) https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide - 5) https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/china https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/china There is more over at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste... as well that shows around the same number above too.
  - ryanlol 7y ago
    This is a lie. Telegram has not evaded Russia, has continuously lied about not having staff in .ru. These aren’t honest people, on telegram.org they still continue to push lies about the “secure” and “encrypted” nature of telegram.
emilfihlman 7y ago
That's very true, I'm just wondering what buttons will they push to do that here given Telegram's background.
- anonuser123456 7y ago
  They instruct financial institutions world wide to cease processing transactions to/from telegram and freeze their accounts or lose access to the US banking system and risk having their assets frozen.
- AzzieElbab 7y ago
  Pressure Apple and Google to remove the app from their stores?
  - notsrg 7y ago
    At least on Android, Telegram is available via Fdroid: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.telegram.messenger/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.telegram.messenger/
    - bdcravens 7y ago
      What percentage of Android users, or to be generous, Telegram users, are running Fdroid?
      - emilfihlman 7y ago
        If you block Telegram from the Play store, suddenly most of them.
      - imsesaok 7y ago
        it's not a huge investment, and does not cost any money; market share really doesn't matter here when you can get in easily. you also can download the app on their website without installing their store app. also keep in mind that telegram definitely can distribute their app on their website, like they do with desktop apps.

sp332 7y ago

The statement says they're preventing Telegram from selling into US markets. They've already sold over one billion "grams" here, so presumably it would hurt Telegram's plans quite a bit to lose the US market entirely.

stevespang 7y ago

EXACTLY. Good luck enforcing it SEC. Pavel and his team have so far successfully eluded Russian agents hopscothching all over the world, I assume any judgement the SEC obtains will be civil in nature, but nonetheless the SEC will likely attempt to criminalize something so they can get a Interpol warrant and make life more difficult for Telegram, in the same manner as Snowden. Indeed, when the perceived threat is offshore you can always make shit up and get the powers to be to rubber stamp it . . .