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The ACLU has some weird goals - arguing that businesses should be forced to deal in cash, forcing cities to allow slums on their streets, and now preventing aut

The ACLU has some weird goals - arguing that businesses should be forced to deal in cash, forcing cities to allow slums on their streets, and now preventing automated detection of wanted criminals. I know they do some good things, but they're definitely not hitting home runs when it comes to making the world a better place.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago
Can you link to the specific cases that the ACLU was advocating for and the exact legal arguments on both sides? Law tends to be exceptionally rigorous and technical on language, and not linking to the specific cases in question and how their formal arguments conclude in your claims makes them sound like bad faith oversimplifcations.
- mullingitover 7y ago
  I honestly don't care about the justifications. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I'm just observing the outcomes.
  - Falling3 7y ago
    >I honestly don't care about the justifications. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Do you not see the irony in that statement in the context of discussing whether further infringements on our civil liberties are worth it because "bad guys"?
    - mullingitover 7y ago
      The world isn't black and white. Giving everyone freedom to camp wherever they want takes away people's freedom from disease and crime. Giving everyone freedom to transact purely in untraceable cash takes away freedom to transact how you want, and also enables fraud and money laundering. Taking facial recognition tools away from law enforcement prevents crime victims from bringing their victimizers to justice.
      - colejohnson66 7y ago
        > Giving everyone freedom to transact purely in untraceable cash takes away freedom to transact how you want, and also enables fraud and money laundering. So we should ban cash because it’s used for money laundering?
        mullingitover 7y ago
        Who said anything about banning cash? The ACLU's position is that they want to force businesses to accept cash.
        colejohnson66 7y ago
        You said cash enables fraud and money laundering
        mullingitover 7y ago
        I mean, it does. It also adds overhead and danger to operating a business since cash makes you a target for robbery. Now we might be able to use facial recognition to quickly find the robbers, but apparently that's bad.
        colejohnson66 7y ago
        It’s bad because it’ll be abused. We have hundreds (thousands) of documented cases of the governments abusing their power when it comes to technology. We specifically have cases of NSA workings spying on their ex-significant others[0] [0]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveil-lance-watchdog/nsa-staff-used-spy-tools-on-spouses-ex-lovers-watchdog-idUSBRE98Q14G20130927 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveil-lance-watchdo...
      - andrekandre 7y ago
        > Giving everyone freedom to camp wherever they want takes away people's freedom from disease and crime. freedom from disease and crime is not outlined anywhere in the constitution afaik...
dhritzkiv 7y ago
It seems that it's only weird how you frame it, no? > be forced to deal in cash can be reframed as "require cash as a payment option" > forcing cities to allow slums on their streets "prevent the forceful removal/evictions of tent cities" > preventing automated detection of wanted criminals "prevent mass-collection of anyone's face, not just criminals"
- mullingitover 7y ago
  > "prevent mass-collection of anyone's face, not just criminals" You're really going to freak out when you realize the government already has everyone's faces. Do you think they just throw away the photo after they create your ID?
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    It would be nice if they did.
autotune 7y ago
It’s almost like they fight for the rights of civil liberties for people below middle class.
SilasX 7y ago
To that list, I'd add their support for curtailing due process in Title IX college tribunals: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/aclu-devos-title-ix/576142/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/aclu-devos...
- GhettoMaestro 7y ago
  ACLU has radically shifted over the past few decades. It is an ideologue first and foremost, and a guardian of civil rights secondly.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago

Can you link to the specific cases that the ACLU was advocating for and the exact legal arguments on both sides? Law tends to be exceptionally rigorous and technical on language, and not linking to the specific cases in question and how their formal arguments conclude in your claims makes them sound like bad faith oversimplifcations.

mullingitover 7y ago
I honestly don't care about the justifications. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I'm just observing the outcomes.
- Falling3 7y ago
  >I honestly don't care about the justifications. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Do you not see the irony in that statement in the context of discussing whether further infringements on our civil liberties are worth it because "bad guys"?
  - mullingitover 7y ago
    The world isn't black and white. Giving everyone freedom to camp wherever they want takes away people's freedom from disease and crime. Giving everyone freedom to transact purely in untraceable cash takes away freedom to transact how you want, and also enables fraud and money laundering. Taking facial recognition tools away from law enforcement prevents crime victims from bringing their victimizers to justice.
    - colejohnson66 7y ago
      > Giving everyone freedom to transact purely in untraceable cash takes away freedom to transact how you want, and also enables fraud and money laundering. So we should ban cash because it’s used for money laundering?
      - mullingitover 7y ago
        Who said anything about banning cash? The ACLU's position is that they want to force businesses to accept cash.
        colejohnson66 7y ago
        You said cash enables fraud and money laundering
        mullingitover 7y ago
        I mean, it does. It also adds overhead and danger to operating a business since cash makes you a target for robbery. Now we might be able to use facial recognition to quickly find the robbers, but apparently that's bad.
        colejohnson66 7y ago
        It’s bad because it’ll be abused. We have hundreds (thousands) of documented cases of the governments abusing their power when it comes to technology. We specifically have cases of NSA workings spying on their ex-significant others[0] [0]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveil-lance-watchdog/nsa-staff-used-spy-tools-on-spouses-ex-lovers-watchdog-idUSBRE98Q14G20130927 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveil-lance-watchdo...
    - andrekandre 7y ago
      > Giving everyone freedom to camp wherever they want takes away people's freedom from disease and crime. freedom from disease and crime is not outlined anywhere in the constitution afaik...

dhritzkiv 7y ago

It seems that it's only weird how you frame it, no? > be forced to deal in cash can be reframed as "require cash as a payment option" > forcing cities to allow slums on their streets "prevent the forceful removal/evictions of tent cities" > preventing automated detection of wanted criminals "prevent mass-collection of anyone's face, not just criminals"

mullingitover 7y ago
> "prevent mass-collection of anyone's face, not just criminals" You're really going to freak out when you realize the government already has everyone's faces. Do you think they just throw away the photo after they create your ID?
- saagarjha 7y ago
  It would be nice if they did.

autotune 7y ago

It’s almost like they fight for the rights of civil liberties for people below middle class.

SilasX 7y ago

To that list, I'd add their support for curtailing due process in Title IX college tribunals: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/aclu-devos-title-ix/576142/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/aclu-devos...

GhettoMaestro 7y ago
ACLU has radically shifted over the past few decades. It is an ideologue first and foremost, and a guardian of civil rights secondly.