6 ms·

Does Switzerland have any future? It's no longer a bank haven for rich Europeans evading taxes nor 3rd world dictators, its banks don't show entrepreneurial spi

by bitL 7y ago

Does Switzerland have any future? It's no longer a bank haven for rich Europeans evading taxes nor 3rd world dictators, its banks don't show entrepreneurial spirit in finding and investing into high-potential startups, rather to well-connected wantrepreneurs, there are no easy money to be made in Eastern Europe/Russia any longer, and its conservatism is likely going to prevent them from making necessary changes until the decline is felt in upper strata of society.

elorant 7y ago
Switzerland has some of the largest corporations in the world in the pharmaceutical industry, and they're by far leaders in the watchmaking industry. Banking isn't the only business they rely on.
- bitL 7y ago
  I know about Basel and its pharma industry that is still top-notch, but as for banking they seem to go down rather quickly even if the effect is not going to be felt for the next decade outside negative interest rates. As for watches, I am not sure that is very relevant since smartphones, outside quickly converting expensive watches into cash while on the run from authorities...
  - zepearl 7y ago
    > ...as for banking they seem to go down rather quickly... I do think that Switzerland might have a problem with banks soon or later, but currently I don't see such situation clearly developing (rather more in Germany with Commerzbank & Deutsche Bank?).
- jacquesm 7y ago
  And then there is pharma, high tech and companies like Logitech. Switzerland is doing just fine.
  - bitL 7y ago
    Just out of curiosity, which Swiss-grown high-tech is there? I know only of Sauber Group.
    - stabbles 7y ago
      Another example is ABB
    - tobltobs 7y ago
      There are lots, you just never hear of them, because those are "only" small to medium sized companies.
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        That's one, also the founders tend to be quite modest.
    - asmithmd1 7y ago
      Here is a swiss manufacturer. A run-of-the-mill company with $1/2 billion in annual sales in a high margin, high tech area. https://www.maxongroup.com/maxon/view/content/product-overview https://www.maxongroup.com/maxon/view/content/product-overvi...
    - zepearl 7y ago
      https://www.oerlikon.com/en/industries/aerospace-industry/ https://www.oerlikon.com/en/industries/aerospace-industry/ The medical-related area has probably others, but I personally have no clue about that.
    - gniv 7y ago
      I recently learned about SonarSource: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SonarSource https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SonarSource
deepsun 7y ago
Well, if you have a very large capital, and you don't do anything risky with it, it's going to work for it's own growth. You don't need to be very smart or inventive.
- bitL 7y ago
  Switzerland is not in the part of the world that is experiencing massive population and productivity increase. It might keep its current level, though its relative significance could be quickly overshadowed by Singapore/Shanghai/Mumbai with resulting long-term negative effects, like inability to attract clients from those parts of the world experiencing highest growth and highest ROI.
  - playing_colours 7y ago
    Quality over quantity. Switzerland is not famous for futuristic factory cities and impressive government projects. Their power is in decentralization, where the issues of a commune are efficiently resolved by local authorities who are the part of it. Another thing, they have strong universities, with good connection between science and innovations. When I checked their startups, a large share of them focussed on advanced science or tech. They also attract our (German) best specialists, particularly, doctors :)
    - piquadrat 7y ago
      > Switzerland is not famous for futuristic factory cities and impressive government projects. The Gotthard Base Tunnel would like to have a word ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel It might not be as visually impressive as a new airport or bridge, but it is one of the largest infrastructure projects of the last couple decades worldwide.
xhgdvjky 7y ago
Long term, I'm not sure. But short term I think they have a very very nice future for themselves. The biggest problem the Swiss have is that everywhere else seems really dirty in comparison.
mixon 7y ago
Nestle -- the largest food company in the world (according to Wikipedia) -- is Swiss.
folli 7y ago
I would agree with your sentiment if you change your first sentence to "Do swiss banks have any future?" Switzerland definitely does.
- bitL 7y ago
  Isn't banking a backbone of the whole Switzerland, and like the main owner of rental properties as well? A friend in Zurich explained to me that people want to buy properties, but nobody is selling and owners prefer rentals. If banking declines, that could lead to a strong rentier economy choking economical progress. I am not talking about major changes within a decade, but beyond that, especially in comparison to China or Singapore.
  - tobltobs 7y ago
    > Isn't banking a backbone of the whole Switzerland, Banking and insurance is nowadays somewhere between 5% and 10% (depending which calculation method you use) of the gross value of Switzerland. Switzerland is still the biggest wealth manager. Most of the wealth (aka black money) managed by swiss banks is nowadays just in offshore tax heavens, like the US. The real backbone and the reason for stability are those thousands of small and medium sized manufacturing companies.
dontbenebby 7y ago
Switzerland has more than just banking IIRC. Much more. For example, many tech companies put offices there, and choose to host servers to be both out of US and EU jurisdiction. You will not be allowed to do illegal things, but there's less worry about things like FISA abuse https://theintercept.com/2019/10/10/fbi-nsa-mass-surveillance-abuse/ https://theintercept.com/2019/10/10/fbi-nsa-mass-surveillanc...
rolltiide 7y ago
Switzerland’s attractiveness was always more than its heavily advertised banking secrecy laws. Before I answer you, did you know that neighboring Austria’s banking secrecy was just as strong and is still very strong for Austrian citizens? Does Austria have a future? Silly question you might conclude. Switzerland’s attractiveness is in its confederate structure, the national government is still extremely small and the states (cantons) administer regulations on any entrepreneur’s behalf and itnis applicable law in all Swiss states barring any conflict. But the general lack of conflict comes from Switzerland being sparsely population, nothing is happening! So, the fintech sector in the state of Zug pays just as much as Silicon Valley except with the lowest state taxes and no federal income tax. All because a couple people asked the financial regulator in Zug (population 100,000) to accept some useful laws. You get the whole brand of Switzerland and its sovereignty from a tiny state agreeing with you. Shop around! Being an EFTA member but non-EU and non-Eurozone allows it to experiment more dramatically without pushback from Brussels. The mixture of cultures in Switzerland smoothes out some of the quirks of the monocultures in its neighboring countries
abc03 7y ago
Absolutely, world-class universities (not just one), highly educated workforce, top rankings everywhere, largest companies in the world, high-tech companies etc. It's just that other countries narrowed the gap. 30 years ago, many countries in the world were poor and backward. They narrowed the gap to Switzerland. It's natural that Switzerland doesn't have the same wide lead anymore. But that's a good thing (for Switzerland and the rest of the world).
euroPoor 7y ago
You’re just showing that you’re not judging on information but on a hinch of what Switzerland is to you. 1) Very conservative and risk-averse population, yes, but also really open to technological innovation 2) Best universities in mainland Europe 3) High profile mutlinationals having their headquarters there This could go on and on ...

by bitL 7y ago

elorant 7y ago

Switzerland has some of the largest corporations in the world in the pharmaceutical industry, and they're by far leaders in the watchmaking industry. Banking isn't the only business they rely on.

bitL 7y ago
I know about Basel and its pharma industry that is still top-notch, but as for banking they seem to go down rather quickly even if the effect is not going to be felt for the next decade outside negative interest rates. As for watches, I am not sure that is very relevant since smartphones, outside quickly converting expensive watches into cash while on the run from authorities...
- zepearl 7y ago
  > ...as for banking they seem to go down rather quickly... I do think that Switzerland might have a problem with banks soon or later, but currently I don't see such situation clearly developing (rather more in Germany with Commerzbank & Deutsche Bank?).
jacquesm 7y ago
And then there is pharma, high tech and companies like Logitech. Switzerland is doing just fine.
- bitL 7y ago
  Just out of curiosity, which Swiss-grown high-tech is there? I know only of Sauber Group.
  - stabbles 7y ago
    Another example is ABB
  - tobltobs 7y ago
    There are lots, you just never hear of them, because those are "only" small to medium sized companies.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      That's one, also the founders tend to be quite modest.
  - asmithmd1 7y ago
    Here is a swiss manufacturer. A run-of-the-mill company with $1/2 billion in annual sales in a high margin, high tech area. https://www.maxongroup.com/maxon/view/content/product-overview https://www.maxongroup.com/maxon/view/content/product-overvi...
  - zepearl 7y ago
    https://www.oerlikon.com/en/industries/aerospace-industry/ https://www.oerlikon.com/en/industries/aerospace-industry/ The medical-related area has probably others, but I personally have no clue about that.
  - gniv 7y ago
    I recently learned about SonarSource: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SonarSource https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SonarSource

deepsun 7y ago

Well, if you have a very large capital, and you don't do anything risky with it, it's going to work for it's own growth. You don't need to be very smart or inventive.

bitL 7y ago
Switzerland is not in the part of the world that is experiencing massive population and productivity increase. It might keep its current level, though its relative significance could be quickly overshadowed by Singapore/Shanghai/Mumbai with resulting long-term negative effects, like inability to attract clients from those parts of the world experiencing highest growth and highest ROI.
- playing_colours 7y ago
  Quality over quantity. Switzerland is not famous for futuristic factory cities and impressive government projects. Their power is in decentralization, where the issues of a commune are efficiently resolved by local authorities who are the part of it. Another thing, they have strong universities, with good connection between science and innovations. When I checked their startups, a large share of them focussed on advanced science or tech. They also attract our (German) best specialists, particularly, doctors :)
  - piquadrat 7y ago
    > Switzerland is not famous for futuristic factory cities and impressive government projects. The Gotthard Base Tunnel would like to have a word ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel It might not be as visually impressive as a new airport or bridge, but it is one of the largest infrastructure projects of the last couple decades worldwide.

xhgdvjky 7y ago

Long term, I'm not sure. But short term I think they have a very very nice future for themselves. The biggest problem the Swiss have is that everywhere else seems really dirty in comparison.

mixon 7y ago

Nestle -- the largest food company in the world (according to Wikipedia) -- is Swiss.

folli 7y ago

I would agree with your sentiment if you change your first sentence to "Do swiss banks have any future?" Switzerland definitely does.

bitL 7y ago
Isn't banking a backbone of the whole Switzerland, and like the main owner of rental properties as well? A friend in Zurich explained to me that people want to buy properties, but nobody is selling and owners prefer rentals. If banking declines, that could lead to a strong rentier economy choking economical progress. I am not talking about major changes within a decade, but beyond that, especially in comparison to China or Singapore.
- tobltobs 7y ago
  > Isn't banking a backbone of the whole Switzerland, Banking and insurance is nowadays somewhere between 5% and 10% (depending which calculation method you use) of the gross value of Switzerland. Switzerland is still the biggest wealth manager. Most of the wealth (aka black money) managed by swiss banks is nowadays just in offshore tax heavens, like the US. The real backbone and the reason for stability are those thousands of small and medium sized manufacturing companies.

dontbenebby 7y ago

Switzerland has more than just banking IIRC. Much more. For example, many tech companies put offices there, and choose to host servers to be both out of US and EU jurisdiction. You will not be allowed to do illegal things, but there's less worry about things like FISA abuse https://theintercept.com/2019/10/10/fbi-nsa-mass-surveillance-abuse/ https://theintercept.com/2019/10/10/fbi-nsa-mass-surveillanc...

rolltiide 7y ago

Switzerland’s attractiveness was always more than its heavily advertised banking secrecy laws. Before I answer you, did you know that neighboring Austria’s banking secrecy was just as strong and is still very strong for Austrian citizens? Does Austria have a future? Silly question you might conclude. Switzerland’s attractiveness is in its confederate structure, the national government is still extremely small and the states (cantons) administer regulations on any entrepreneur’s behalf and itnis applicable law in all Swiss states barring any conflict. But the general lack of conflict comes from Switzerland being sparsely population, nothing is happening! So, the fintech sector in the state of Zug pays just as much as Silicon Valley except with the lowest state taxes and no federal income tax. All because a couple people asked the financial regulator in Zug (population 100,000) to accept some useful laws. You get the whole brand of Switzerland and its sovereignty from a tiny state agreeing with you. Shop around! Being an EFTA member but non-EU and non-Eurozone allows it to experiment more dramatically without pushback from Brussels. The mixture of cultures in Switzerland smoothes out some of the quirks of the monocultures in its neighboring countries

abc03 7y ago

Absolutely, world-class universities (not just one), highly educated workforce, top rankings everywhere, largest companies in the world, high-tech companies etc. It's just that other countries narrowed the gap. 30 years ago, many countries in the world were poor and backward. They narrowed the gap to Switzerland. It's natural that Switzerland doesn't have the same wide lead anymore. But that's a good thing (for Switzerland and the rest of the world).

euroPoor 7y ago

You’re just showing that you’re not judging on information but on a hinch of what Switzerland is to you. 1) Very conservative and risk-averse population, yes, but also really open to technological innovation 2) Best universities in mainland Europe 3) High profile mutlinationals having their headquarters there This could go on and on ...