5 ms·

I hate to be a jerk about this, but the headline bugs me. When I first heard the phrase "social justice", I assumed it meant that the people who did the work re

I hate to be a jerk about this, but the headline bugs me. When I first heard the phrase "social justice", I assumed it meant that the people who did the work reaped the rewards. Sort of like the Little Red Hen. But here, "justice" seems to mean the opposite. No matter how the poker game works out, the dealer redistributes the winnings to everyone including those who made foolish bets. For what it's worth, I think that capital gains should be taxed at a lower rate because people are putting their own wealth on the line. Someone who buys a stock with $100 could lose the entire $100. Yet if that person gets a dividend of, say, $3 in return for the investment, the authors want this $3 to be treated like ordinary income. But people in regular jobs don't put any capital at risk. The worst that can happen is that the boss cheats them and they don't get paid. In other words, they don't get the $3. They don't put any of their savings at risk.

random023987 7y ago
Life isn't a poker game. You can't take the same rules from Vegas and apply them to health care and human rights.
- qmmmur 7y ago
  Not only that, but the parent is disregarding the human capital put on the line. Time spent educating and specialising is the equivalent of a bet at times.
- cabaalis 7y ago
  It is, though. Your employer or your clients are risking their money for future gain. To make more money than they put into it, to be "richer."
qntty 7y ago
If they don't get paid, they have lost the entire value of their labor. Why is this worth less than money? If anything it should be worth more. There are only so many hours in the day.
- ameister14 7y ago
  All capital represents what was at some point someone's labor. So I labored, was paid, then hired people to labor in exchange for money, then made more money from the products of labor, then risked the value of that labor in an investment. It's not less, and not more.
- DennisP 7y ago
  Well yes, but if you don't get paid your promised wages, you can generally call up a government agency and get them to make your employer pay up. If you buy stock and it drops by 90%, nobody is going to help you.
  - throwaway_law 7y ago
    >you can generally call up a government agency and get them to make your employer pay up. Thats not how it works, you can pay out of pocket for a lawyer to help you, but people in this position can't generally afford a lawyer. Take a look at all the stories of Trump not paying employees, they didn't have a government hotline to call that got Trump to pay up.
    - DennisP 7y ago
      > The Department of Labor's Wage and Hour Division (WHD) is responsible for enforcing the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). The most common remedy for wage violations is an order that an employer make up the difference between what the employee was paid and the amount he or she should have been paid. > The WHD conducts investigations as a part of its enforcement of the FLSA and many investigations are initiated by worker complaints. Not only that, but it can go beyond civil actions: > Employers who willfully violate the minimum wage or overtime laws are subject to civil penalties of up to $1,000 for each willful violation. Willful violations of the FLSA may result in criminal prosecution and the violator can be subject to a fine of up to $10,000. A second conviction may result in imprisonment. https://employment.findlaw.com/wages-and-benefits/how-to-report-unpaid-wages-and-recover-back-pay.html https://employment.findlaw.com/wages-and-benefits/how-to-rep...
ipython 7y ago
You’re right they don’t put their capital at risk. Laborers are putting something much more valuable at risk: their time. Those at the lowest rungs of the social ladder are also putting their literal bodies at risk.
- ameister14 7y ago
  Their time is not necessarily much more valuable than capital. I know this because they give up time for capital.
  - vinceguidry 7y ago
    Needing to buy safety with capital is the awful part.
  - zbyte64 7y ago
    And since they did the job for free their time is worthless.
- xhkkffbf 7y ago
  Yes, time is wonderful and it's a very limited thing, but they're not putting as much on the line. They only risk $3. The capitalist has to risk 30 times as much to get the same reward.
ownagefool 7y ago
It's a bit more complex than that though. I'd argue time is a more important commodity than money you put down. You could argue that money was earned by previous time, but the rich poor divide probably isn't going to change withe the latter attitude.
luckydata 7y ago
you don't understand because your values are not aligned to the values of the people making this proposal. I value a just society where most people can live with dignity above the opportunity to become mega rich, you don't.
conanbatt 7y ago
I think what's worse is that the basic nature of taxes is not taken into account, which is allegedly desired government activities, and instead some sort of moral compensation for existing a la christian church. The consolidated US government already collects 33% of GDP in taxes: how about consuming the worst performing services of the government? I'm sure there's at least 5% of spending thats a no-brainer pure loss to society.
slg 7y ago
There is large spectrum from we redistribute everything to we redistribute nothing. We can probably all agree that "justice" doesn't exist at either extreme, but it is also a vague term and its exact location on that spectrum will vary based on personal opinion. That said, a lot of people believe the location of "justice" on that spectrum is closer to the "we redistribute everything" side than where we currently sit and a move to more redistribution would therefore yield more justice. That is the opinion put forward in the article and hence the headline.
option_greek 7y ago
Also the $100 they put has a chance of boosting economy and jobs.
jgalt212 7y ago
> I think that capital gains should be taxed at a lower rate because people are putting their own wealth on the line. Fine, but how do you do that without keeping the carried interest loophole that just won't go away regardless of which party is in power.
- DennisP 7y ago
  Why couldn't you write a rule specifically for that? E.g. if it's your own capital, it's the capital gains rate, if it's somebody else's capital it's income.
  - jgalt212 7y ago
    of course, you can. If you can pass laws, but in the US it's very hard to pass law these days. Ergo, all the fighting over Supreme Court appointees.
    - DennisP 7y ago
      We did get a change to the tax law during Trump's administration, so it's not totally impossible.
true_religion 7y ago
All other forms for risk except stock investment are treated like ordinary income. If I start a company but sell no stock, and wholly self fund, then all my profits are treated like ordinary income.
koolba 7y ago
One curve ball in all this is that you get to deduct and offset capital losses against other capital gains. That $100 that you lost betting on $LOSER gets to be offset against the $100 you made betting on $WINNER.
- RhysU 7y ago
  Sure, you only came out ahead ($Winner - $Loser) and you're taxed on the gains. What's the curve ball?
GoodJokes 7y ago
It isn’t their wealth though. It’s stolen wealth from the workers they directly or indirectly exploit. Also, risk is a pretty subjective term. If I am a billionaire, pitting 10 million on the line isn’t risky. It is a childs game with very little consequence to me. And again, a game played with ill gotten resources. Your conception of capital is pretty narrow. A person in a regular job puts tons of risk on the line each day with their body, time, and mental health. They don’t get to reap the rewards hardly as much though.
throwaway_law 7y ago
>I think that capital gains should be taxed at a lower rate because people are putting their own wealth on the line. Its a luxury to have wealth you can invest and grow without actually having to work for a wage. Plus you are overstating the downside, because if they lose their $100, its a tax write off on their next bet they win. If passive income is such a burden because the taxes you are paying, then don't invest and get a job and pay the higher payroll/income taxes, believe it or not no one really cares, just the same as investors don't really care that the rank and file employees who are making them returns don't have healthcare, don't have pensions and are living hand to mouth. > But people in regular jobs don't put any capital at risk. You are justifying taxing the working class at a higher rate for being poor. >They don't put any of their savings at risk. Because they are living hand to mouth and don't have savings...and thats not because of "foolish bets" at the poker table. The US doesn't have the lowest social mobility rate in the World for nothing or because people are going out and blowing their wealth on bad decisions. The system isn't just stacked against social and economic mobility...the capitalists are actively trying to indebt the working class for life, and the numbers suggest they have been winning for decades now.

random023987 7y ago

Life isn't a poker game. You can't take the same rules from Vegas and apply them to health care and human rights.

qmmmur 7y ago
Not only that, but the parent is disregarding the human capital put on the line. Time spent educating and specialising is the equivalent of a bet at times.
cabaalis 7y ago
It is, though. Your employer or your clients are risking their money for future gain. To make more money than they put into it, to be "richer."

qntty 7y ago

If they don't get paid, they have lost the entire value of their labor. Why is this worth less than money? If anything it should be worth more. There are only so many hours in the day.

ameister14 7y ago
All capital represents what was at some point someone's labor. So I labored, was paid, then hired people to labor in exchange for money, then made more money from the products of labor, then risked the value of that labor in an investment. It's not less, and not more.
DennisP 7y ago
Well yes, but if you don't get paid your promised wages, you can generally call up a government agency and get them to make your employer pay up. If you buy stock and it drops by 90%, nobody is going to help you.
- throwaway_law 7y ago
  >you can generally call up a government agency and get them to make your employer pay up. Thats not how it works, you can pay out of pocket for a lawyer to help you, but people in this position can't generally afford a lawyer. Take a look at all the stories of Trump not paying employees, they didn't have a government hotline to call that got Trump to pay up.
  - DennisP 7y ago
    > The Department of Labor's Wage and Hour Division (WHD) is responsible for enforcing the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). The most common remedy for wage violations is an order that an employer make up the difference between what the employee was paid and the amount he or she should have been paid. > The WHD conducts investigations as a part of its enforcement of the FLSA and many investigations are initiated by worker complaints. Not only that, but it can go beyond civil actions: > Employers who willfully violate the minimum wage or overtime laws are subject to civil penalties of up to $1,000 for each willful violation. Willful violations of the FLSA may result in criminal prosecution and the violator can be subject to a fine of up to $10,000. A second conviction may result in imprisonment. https://employment.findlaw.com/wages-and-benefits/how-to-report-unpaid-wages-and-recover-back-pay.html https://employment.findlaw.com/wages-and-benefits/how-to-rep...

ipython 7y ago

You’re right they don’t put their capital at risk. Laborers are putting something much more valuable at risk: their time. Those at the lowest rungs of the social ladder are also putting their literal bodies at risk.

ameister14 7y ago
Their time is not necessarily much more valuable than capital. I know this because they give up time for capital.
- vinceguidry 7y ago
  Needing to buy safety with capital is the awful part.
- zbyte64 7y ago
  And since they did the job for free their time is worthless.
xhkkffbf 7y ago
Yes, time is wonderful and it's a very limited thing, but they're not putting as much on the line. They only risk $3. The capitalist has to risk 30 times as much to get the same reward.

ownagefool 7y ago

It's a bit more complex than that though. I'd argue time is a more important commodity than money you put down. You could argue that money was earned by previous time, but the rich poor divide probably isn't going to change withe the latter attitude.

luckydata 7y ago

you don't understand because your values are not aligned to the values of the people making this proposal. I value a just society where most people can live with dignity above the opportunity to become mega rich, you don't.

conanbatt 7y ago

I think what's worse is that the basic nature of taxes is not taken into account, which is allegedly desired government activities, and instead some sort of moral compensation for existing a la christian church. The consolidated US government already collects 33% of GDP in taxes: how about consuming the worst performing services of the government? I'm sure there's at least 5% of spending thats a no-brainer pure loss to society.

slg 7y ago

There is large spectrum from we redistribute everything to we redistribute nothing. We can probably all agree that "justice" doesn't exist at either extreme, but it is also a vague term and its exact location on that spectrum will vary based on personal opinion. That said, a lot of people believe the location of "justice" on that spectrum is closer to the "we redistribute everything" side than where we currently sit and a move to more redistribution would therefore yield more justice. That is the opinion put forward in the article and hence the headline.

option_greek 7y ago

Also the $100 they put has a chance of boosting economy and jobs.

jgalt212 7y ago

> I think that capital gains should be taxed at a lower rate because people are putting their own wealth on the line. Fine, but how do you do that without keeping the carried interest loophole that just won't go away regardless of which party is in power.

DennisP 7y ago
Why couldn't you write a rule specifically for that? E.g. if it's your own capital, it's the capital gains rate, if it's somebody else's capital it's income.
- jgalt212 7y ago
  of course, you can. If you can pass laws, but in the US it's very hard to pass law these days. Ergo, all the fighting over Supreme Court appointees.
  - DennisP 7y ago
    We did get a change to the tax law during Trump's administration, so it's not totally impossible.

true_religion 7y ago

All other forms for risk except stock investment are treated like ordinary income. If I start a company but sell no stock, and wholly self fund, then all my profits are treated like ordinary income.

koolba 7y ago

One curve ball in all this is that you get to deduct and offset capital losses against other capital gains. That $100 that you lost betting on $LOSER gets to be offset against the $100 you made betting on $WINNER.

RhysU 7y ago
Sure, you only came out ahead ($Winner - $Loser) and you're taxed on the gains. What's the curve ball?

GoodJokes 7y ago

It isn’t their wealth though. It’s stolen wealth from the workers they directly or indirectly exploit. Also, risk is a pretty subjective term. If I am a billionaire, pitting 10 million on the line isn’t risky. It is a childs game with very little consequence to me. And again, a game played with ill gotten resources. Your conception of capital is pretty narrow. A person in a regular job puts tons of risk on the line each day with their body, time, and mental health. They don’t get to reap the rewards hardly as much though.

throwaway_law 7y ago

>I think that capital gains should be taxed at a lower rate because people are putting their own wealth on the line. Its a luxury to have wealth you can invest and grow without actually having to work for a wage. Plus you are overstating the downside, because if they lose their $100, its a tax write off on their next bet they win. If passive income is such a burden because the taxes you are paying, then don't invest and get a job and pay the higher payroll/income taxes, believe it or not no one really cares, just the same as investors don't really care that the rank and file employees who are making them returns don't have healthcare, don't have pensions and are living hand to mouth. > But people in regular jobs don't put any capital at risk. You are justifying taxing the working class at a higher rate for being poor. >They don't put any of their savings at risk. Because they are living hand to mouth and don't have savings...and thats not because of "foolish bets" at the poker table. The US doesn't have the lowest social mobility rate in the World for nothing or because people are going out and blowing their wealth on bad decisions. The system isn't just stacked against social and economic mobility...the capitalists are actively trying to indebt the working class for life, and the numbers suggest they have been winning for decades now.