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> There's an official denial of a "green light" Have you considered the possibility that a green light was, in fact, not given, and that Putin has simply outma

> There's an official denial of a "green light" Have you considered the possibility that a green light was, in fact, not given, and that Putin has simply outmanoeuvred America in this case? I think the evidence points towards Russian intel backing Turkey's latest operation. America completely failed to implement her interests in the region partly due the absolute mess of her internal politics, e.g. a still completely dysfunctional and understaffed State Department: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/11/state-department-empty-ambassador-to-australi/574831/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/11/state-d... Three pieces of evidence that Turkey is drifting towards the Russian sphere of influence: 1. The nonchalance with which Turkey exited the F-35 program preferring the purchase of Russian made S-400 air defence systems. 2. The recent agreement between Turkey and Russia to use the Russian MIR payment system and to settle sovereign debts in Liras/Rubles instead of US dollars. 3. This latest incursion into Syria, which serves no American interest, but clearly serves Putin by taking an American ally out of the equation (the Kurds). edit: perhaps Trump greenlit it, but America didn't.

luxuryballs 7y ago
I think the idea that US tax payers funding a military effort that isn’t involved in actually protecting the US should be considered here too, especially since we’ve probably endured more actual American deaths because of such activity. Spending money not protecting the people who are funding it is bad enough but putting the people funding it in more danger than they were before is really bad, that’s the opposite of what the military is for.
- WaxProlix 7y ago
  And so you sell out and instantly betray your allies against ISIS the second they're not immediately useful anymore? Aside from the deeply troubling morality expressed there, you're setting yourself up to never have local allies in any future conflicts as we can all see just how well that's worked out in the past. The answer to "how do we not fund and die in foreign wars?" isn't "go to war in foreign countries over and over again and then abandon our allies as soon as our immediate objectives are apparently met", it's gotta be more like "stop picking fights in foreign countries".
  - maximente 7y ago
    these loyalty types seem to suffer from classic irrational doubling-down syndrome where because the US made various mistakes in the past, we must atone for them by supporting our "allies" (often complicated, not-so-nice groups who contribute to regional instability even more once armed with latest US gadgets) in perpetuity. after all, what's a couple more military outposts given 100s already exist across the world? the best time to bring all US troops home was 74 years ago. the second best time is today. perpetual atonement for mistakes made in the past is really just air cover for maintain tentacles across the world, which are tantalizingly useful for continued regime change/provocation/etc.
    - WaxProlix 7y ago
      I understand this point of view and am sympathetic to it, but that's not what is happening here. This isn't an overture of non-interventionism from a Changed America, it's Erdogan calling in a favor in order to extend his human rights abuses from an increasingly authoritarian USA; there isn't some concomitant immediate pulling out of troops in Afghanistan or any of our many other foreign footholds. Framing it as such is mistaken, and maybe disingenuous. So, to the sentiment you express, I agree! But still think this specific incident is not an example of that sentiment, and I still think it's really, really shitty.
  - notyourday 7y ago
    > And so you sell out and instantly betray your allies against ISIS the second they're not immediately useful anymore? "Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests."
throwaway5752 7y ago
That is definitely not the case. Multiple source in the conversation have leaked that it was greenlit. This is one of the president's own people: https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-official-who-heard-call-says-trump-got-rolled-turkey-has-no-spine-1463623 https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-official-who-heard-call-s... Trump did green light this, he talked about it publicly on the record. Do you not believe him? Multiple military service people have made statements on the record about having been ordered to withdraw? Who would have ordered that?
- igammarays 7y ago
  The source you posted seems to support my point, that America was outmanoeuvred. Even if Trump did greenlight the operation, it seems that he was forced to. Trump saying that he did in fact greenlight it is the easiest way to save face.
  - throwaway5752 7y ago
    The US president is the "commander in chief" and it's not an meaningless title. They have absolute control over all branches of the military. He made an agreement on the phone, from all reports, because he was not smart enough to know what he was agreeing to. But it's an executive order none the less and the military has to follow it. All it takes is a phone call to Trump. That's why it's so critical that he is a Russian asset, or did we miss the withdrawal from the Open Skies treaty this week, too?
netsharc 7y ago
Trump had a phone call with Erdogan, and later that day tweeted the policy change. That's how pathetic he is, he'll be convinced about anything by the last person he speaks to (IIRC a Dem got a deal about the border with him, but after that the freak Stephen Miller talked to him and he announced the deal was off). And I do wish the military would stand up against him as a domestic enemy, I want to say following their oath, but looking it up it does say "and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States", so it seems either way they're going to break said oath. I wonder how the military can determine that someone is a domestic enemy (of the constitution). Can they do their own investigation? If it's the president they're investigating, would that be considered planning a coup?
- igammarays 7y ago
  > And I do wish the military would stand up against him as a domestic enemy Are you calling for civil war?
  - netsharc 7y ago
    Hah, where did I write that...
- GhettoMaestro 7y ago
  > And I do wish the military would stand up against him as a domestic enemy [...] No. You don't want this. You have no idea how much you don't want this. Have you ever had a gun fired at you? It is not a pleasant experience.
buboard 7y ago
What are America s interests in the region? From the region it looks like America is doing random crap that sparks wars and refugees
- throwaway5752 7y ago
  Oil, just like everyone else on the planet for the last century. The Tethys Sea ran from the Persian Gulf across central Europe and the Mediterranean hundreds of millions of years ago, deposited massive oil reserves, and cursed the region and its people.

luxuryballs 7y ago

I think the idea that US tax payers funding a military effort that isn’t involved in actually protecting the US should be considered here too, especially since we’ve probably endured more actual American deaths because of such activity. Spending money not protecting the people who are funding it is bad enough but putting the people funding it in more danger than they were before is really bad, that’s the opposite of what the military is for.

WaxProlix 7y ago
And so you sell out and instantly betray your allies against ISIS the second they're not immediately useful anymore? Aside from the deeply troubling morality expressed there, you're setting yourself up to never have local allies in any future conflicts as we can all see just how well that's worked out in the past. The answer to "how do we not fund and die in foreign wars?" isn't "go to war in foreign countries over and over again and then abandon our allies as soon as our immediate objectives are apparently met", it's gotta be more like "stop picking fights in foreign countries".
- maximente 7y ago
  these loyalty types seem to suffer from classic irrational doubling-down syndrome where because the US made various mistakes in the past, we must atone for them by supporting our "allies" (often complicated, not-so-nice groups who contribute to regional instability even more once armed with latest US gadgets) in perpetuity. after all, what's a couple more military outposts given 100s already exist across the world? the best time to bring all US troops home was 74 years ago. the second best time is today. perpetual atonement for mistakes made in the past is really just air cover for maintain tentacles across the world, which are tantalizingly useful for continued regime change/provocation/etc.
  - WaxProlix 7y ago
    I understand this point of view and am sympathetic to it, but that's not what is happening here. This isn't an overture of non-interventionism from a Changed America, it's Erdogan calling in a favor in order to extend his human rights abuses from an increasingly authoritarian USA; there isn't some concomitant immediate pulling out of troops in Afghanistan or any of our many other foreign footholds. Framing it as such is mistaken, and maybe disingenuous. So, to the sentiment you express, I agree! But still think this specific incident is not an example of that sentiment, and I still think it's really, really shitty.
- notyourday 7y ago
  > And so you sell out and instantly betray your allies against ISIS the second they're not immediately useful anymore? "Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests."

throwaway5752 7y ago

That is definitely not the case. Multiple source in the conversation have leaked that it was greenlit. This is one of the president's own people: https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-official-who-heard-call-says-trump-got-rolled-turkey-has-no-spine-1463623 https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-official-who-heard-call-s... Trump did green light this, he talked about it publicly on the record. Do you not believe him? Multiple military service people have made statements on the record about having been ordered to withdraw? Who would have ordered that?

igammarays 7y ago
The source you posted seems to support my point, that America was outmanoeuvred. Even if Trump did greenlight the operation, it seems that he was forced to. Trump saying that he did in fact greenlight it is the easiest way to save face.
- throwaway5752 7y ago
  The US president is the "commander in chief" and it's not an meaningless title. They have absolute control over all branches of the military. He made an agreement on the phone, from all reports, because he was not smart enough to know what he was agreeing to. But it's an executive order none the less and the military has to follow it. All it takes is a phone call to Trump. That's why it's so critical that he is a Russian asset, or did we miss the withdrawal from the Open Skies treaty this week, too?

netsharc 7y ago

Trump had a phone call with Erdogan, and later that day tweeted the policy change. That's how pathetic he is, he'll be convinced about anything by the last person he speaks to (IIRC a Dem got a deal about the border with him, but after that the freak Stephen Miller talked to him and he announced the deal was off). And I do wish the military would stand up against him as a domestic enemy, I want to say following their oath, but looking it up it does say "and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States", so it seems either way they're going to break said oath. I wonder how the military can determine that someone is a domestic enemy (of the constitution). Can they do their own investigation? If it's the president they're investigating, would that be considered planning a coup?

igammarays 7y ago
> And I do wish the military would stand up against him as a domestic enemy Are you calling for civil war?
- netsharc 7y ago
  Hah, where did I write that...
GhettoMaestro 7y ago
> And I do wish the military would stand up against him as a domestic enemy [...] No. You don't want this. You have no idea how much you don't want this. Have you ever had a gun fired at you? It is not a pleasant experience.

buboard 7y ago

What are America s interests in the region? From the region it looks like America is doing random crap that sparks wars and refugees

throwaway5752 7y ago
Oil, just like everyone else on the planet for the last century. The Tethys Sea ran from the Persian Gulf across central Europe and the Mediterranean hundreds of millions of years ago, deposited massive oil reserves, and cursed the region and its people.