6 ms·

First of all, Turkey is not invading any country. This is just a military offence for securing our borders. It is a basic instinct that every state has nowadays

by m00dy 7y ago

First of all, Turkey is not invading any country. This is just a military offence for securing our borders. It is a basic instinct that every state has nowadays. It is like border that US is now building on Mexico. Just imagine bunch of mexican gangs trespassing your US border and make some unrest. This is almost same situation. Turkey is the country that killed most ISIS fighters. Having strong equality between man/women shouldn't be the only parameter when you are picking up your allies. US and Turkey are member of NATO and we have operations together since then. (Including Korea, Afghanistan and Iraq). Situation for Syria is a little bit different here. Because, it is too close to Turkey. If you cut connections to Turkey, it will cost you more.

_ink_ 7y ago
Turkey is stealing a 30km wide coridor from a different country. If they want a safe zone, they could implement it on their side of the border.
- m00dy 7y ago
  Turkey has been fighting with PKK for than 30 years now. I can say that having a safe zone within our borders didn't work so far.
  - jacobush 7y ago
    And this magically will?
    - m00dy 7y ago
      yes, according to famous book 'Art of War by sun tzu', you have to defeat the enemy at his place. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_War
      - jacobush 7y ago
        The enemy is in the heart of Erdogan. It’s corrupt and vile.
- ramphastidae 7y ago
  I’m not condoning Turkey’s actions, but this reasoning only works assuming there is a functioning government capable of securing its own territory on the other side of the border and that is not currently the case. If hostile paramilitary forces were organizing attacks on the other side of the Mexican border at a time when the Mexican government and military itself had collapsed, I can promise you the US would have no problem establishing a safe zone beyond its formal borders.
johnchristopher 7y ago
Regardless of wether you are wrong or right I believe you shouldn't be downvoted since your comment serves as a different point of view.
- megous 7y ago
  The comment should be downvoted for inacurracy. "Turkey is the country that killed most ISIS fighters." This is very doubtful and should either be supported by some facts or retracted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey%E2%80%93ISIL_conflict#2013_Turkey%E2%80%93ISIL_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey%E2%80%93ISIL_conflict#2... vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_military_intervention_against_ISIL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_military_interve... Coalition killed ~80,000 vs Turkey killed ~6,000.
- dfasdfasd 7y ago
  It's not _just_ a different point of view though. It's Turkish propaganda and even includes a "hordes of others" reference which comes from an ultra-nationalist viewpoint that is incompatible with modern values. Furthermore, no one is censoring them beyond their comment getting a bit more gray, downvotes are not the end of the world. We don't need a community of people justifying massacres because they're scared of retaliations from the same foreigners they're subjecting to brutal oppression.
- alkonaut 7y ago
  I think ”not invading another country” is factually misleading. It’s not another point of view. There is no difference between “invading a country” and “establishing a security zone inside another country”.
- iiv 7y ago
  There is no inherent value in having a different view. There's value in having a different view that has some value.
  - johnchristopher 7y ago
    I find value in taking notes of different views, wether or not I or others grant them values (which in itself is of value to me).
TheArcane 7y ago
> Having strong equality between man/women shouldn't be the only parameter when you are picking up your allies It does become a lot easier for them to qualify as allies if they share core western values
- m00dy 7y ago
  Oh really ? How about political view of PKK/YPG ? Do you think they embrace western values as well ? They are Marxist–Leninist Communist.
  - NoGravitas 7y ago
    Not exactly. I'm not going to go too much into the distinction between the PKK and the YPG, but they are not the same organization. The correction I want to make is to note that the official ideology of the YPG is [Democratic Confederalism][0]. It is a form of libertarian socialism, strongly influenced by the ideas of Murray Bookchin. A brief quote from the Wikipedia article: Democratic confederalism is a "system of popularly elected administrative councils, allowing local communities to exercise autonomous control over their assets, while linking to other communities via a network of confederal councils." Decisions are made by communes in each neighborhood, village, or city. All are welcome to partake in the communal councils, but political participation is not mandated. There is no private property, but rather “ownership by use, which grants individuals usage rights to the buildings, land, and infrastructure, but not the right to sell and buy on the market or convert them private enterprises.” The economy is in the hands of the communal councils, and is thus (in the words of Bookchin) ‘neither collectivised nor privatised, it is common.’ Feminism, ecology and direct democracy are essential in democratic confederalism. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_%C3%96calan#Democratic_confederalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_%C3%96calan#Democrati...
    - m00dy 7y ago
      "There is no private property, " looks like very American to me.
dmix 7y ago
The only good argument IMO is that the Kurd's YPG won't distance themselves from the (actual) PKK terrorists. If they made steps to do so then Turkey wouldn't have nearly as good of a justification and I wonder if this would be different. Although I'm doubtful Turkey would still make that distinction. The border security argument is a bit weak. You shouldn't need to cross a border to defend a border.
- jacobush 7y ago
  YPG would still be mainly Kurds. So Erdogan would find a reason to kill them.
- p4bl0 7y ago
  The fact that the PKK is a terrorist organization is not at all a given. It is propaganda pushed by the Turkish government. The US government follows and so NATO too but without real ground for it (other than disliking communists a lot, I mean). The UN does not consider the PKK as a terrorist organization, and the EU Court ruled that it should be removed for the terrorist organizations list.
  - dmix 7y ago
    I follow this stuff pretty closely. Any organization that suicide bombs civilian areas is a terrorist IMO. The EU, NATO, Japan, etc didn't start using that designation for nothing. PKK also had an estimated 3000 child soldiers which were also used for terror operations and in combat in Syria: https://hrwf.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Child-soldiers-in-ISIS-PKK-Boko-Haram….pdf https://hrwf.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Child-soldiers-in...
    - lostlogin 7y ago
      Both sides are using terrorism on civilians but the label doesn’t stick when the explosives come from a plane or gun barrel. Both sides are US allies and this can be solved with pressure from other states too.
      - 7y ago

by m00dy 7y ago

_ink_ 7y ago

Turkey is stealing a 30km wide coridor from a different country. If they want a safe zone, they could implement it on their side of the border.

m00dy 7y ago
Turkey has been fighting with PKK for than 30 years now. I can say that having a safe zone within our borders didn't work so far.
- jacobush 7y ago
  And this magically will?
  - m00dy 7y ago
    yes, according to famous book 'Art of War by sun tzu', you have to defeat the enemy at his place. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_War
    - jacobush 7y ago
      The enemy is in the heart of Erdogan. It’s corrupt and vile.
ramphastidae 7y ago
I’m not condoning Turkey’s actions, but this reasoning only works assuming there is a functioning government capable of securing its own territory on the other side of the border and that is not currently the case. If hostile paramilitary forces were organizing attacks on the other side of the Mexican border at a time when the Mexican government and military itself had collapsed, I can promise you the US would have no problem establishing a safe zone beyond its formal borders.

johnchristopher 7y ago

Regardless of wether you are wrong or right I believe you shouldn't be downvoted since your comment serves as a different point of view.

megous 7y ago
The comment should be downvoted for inacurracy. "Turkey is the country that killed most ISIS fighters." This is very doubtful and should either be supported by some facts or retracted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey%E2%80%93ISIL_conflict#2013_Turkey%E2%80%93ISIL_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey%E2%80%93ISIL_conflict#2... vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_military_intervention_against_ISIL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_military_interve... Coalition killed ~80,000 vs Turkey killed ~6,000.
dfasdfasd 7y ago
It's not _just_ a different point of view though. It's Turkish propaganda and even includes a "hordes of others" reference which comes from an ultra-nationalist viewpoint that is incompatible with modern values. Furthermore, no one is censoring them beyond their comment getting a bit more gray, downvotes are not the end of the world. We don't need a community of people justifying massacres because they're scared of retaliations from the same foreigners they're subjecting to brutal oppression.
alkonaut 7y ago
I think ”not invading another country” is factually misleading. It’s not another point of view. There is no difference between “invading a country” and “establishing a security zone inside another country”.
iiv 7y ago
There is no inherent value in having a different view. There's value in having a different view that has some value.
- johnchristopher 7y ago
  I find value in taking notes of different views, wether or not I or others grant them values (which in itself is of value to me).

TheArcane 7y ago

> Having strong equality between man/women shouldn't be the only parameter when you are picking up your allies It does become a lot easier for them to qualify as allies if they share core western values

m00dy 7y ago
Oh really ? How about political view of PKK/YPG ? Do you think they embrace western values as well ? They are Marxist–Leninist Communist.
- NoGravitas 7y ago
  Not exactly. I'm not going to go too much into the distinction between the PKK and the YPG, but they are not the same organization. The correction I want to make is to note that the official ideology of the YPG is [Democratic Confederalism][0]. It is a form of libertarian socialism, strongly influenced by the ideas of Murray Bookchin. A brief quote from the Wikipedia article: Democratic confederalism is a "system of popularly elected administrative councils, allowing local communities to exercise autonomous control over their assets, while linking to other communities via a network of confederal councils." Decisions are made by communes in each neighborhood, village, or city. All are welcome to partake in the communal councils, but political participation is not mandated. There is no private property, but rather “ownership by use, which grants individuals usage rights to the buildings, land, and infrastructure, but not the right to sell and buy on the market or convert them private enterprises.” The economy is in the hands of the communal councils, and is thus (in the words of Bookchin) ‘neither collectivised nor privatised, it is common.’ Feminism, ecology and direct democracy are essential in democratic confederalism. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_%C3%96calan#Democratic_confederalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_%C3%96calan#Democrati...
  - m00dy 7y ago
    "There is no private property, " looks like very American to me.

dmix 7y ago

The only good argument IMO is that the Kurd's YPG won't distance themselves from the (actual) PKK terrorists. If they made steps to do so then Turkey wouldn't have nearly as good of a justification and I wonder if this would be different. Although I'm doubtful Turkey would still make that distinction. The border security argument is a bit weak. You shouldn't need to cross a border to defend a border.

jacobush 7y ago
YPG would still be mainly Kurds. So Erdogan would find a reason to kill them.
p4bl0 7y ago
The fact that the PKK is a terrorist organization is not at all a given. It is propaganda pushed by the Turkish government. The US government follows and so NATO too but without real ground for it (other than disliking communists a lot, I mean). The UN does not consider the PKK as a terrorist organization, and the EU Court ruled that it should be removed for the terrorist organizations list.
- dmix 7y ago
  I follow this stuff pretty closely. Any organization that suicide bombs civilian areas is a terrorist IMO. The EU, NATO, Japan, etc didn't start using that designation for nothing. PKK also had an estimated 3000 child soldiers which were also used for terror operations and in combat in Syria: https://hrwf.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Child-soldiers-in-ISIS-PKK-Boko-Haram….pdf https://hrwf.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Child-soldiers-in...
  - lostlogin 7y ago
    Both sides are using terrorism on civilians but the label doesn’t stick when the explosives come from a plane or gun barrel. Both sides are US allies and this can be solved with pressure from other states too.
    - 7y ago