5 ms·

I was talking more about the GUI/command line divide. SolidWorks/Blender are fundamentally GUI apps, even if they do contain some programmatic features (like p

I was talking more about the GUI/command line divide. SolidWorks/Blender are fundamentally GUI apps, even if they do contain some programmatic features (like parametric filters/models/...). Also, all media software have something like "Unix tools who do one thing well" - plugins, filters, ..., but you compose them using the GUI.

kragen 7y ago
It sounds like you're being confused by the surface appearance of things, rather than paying attention to their fundamental nature. Maybe that's why you weren't able to understand the arrogant Vim guy's utterance and wrote him off as delusional instead of figuring out in what sense he might be saying something true. It's good that you did figure it out eventually even if you couldn't hear it from him. Unix wasn't distinguished from other contemporary systems by not using a GUI. With a few visionary exceptions like NLS/Augment, SKETCHPAD, Spacewar!, and GENESYS, computers didn't have GUIs when Unix was born. The Unix philosophy wasn't about using textual commands. Every computer used textual commands except desk calculators. It was about a uniform interface that permits unrestricted composition of orthogonal software components, easy and expressive automation of routine tasks, and prioritizing usability over absolute computational efficiency. These are not, to put it mildly, Photoshop’s strong points.
- investinme 7y ago
  I understand your point about Vim not following Unix philosophy, also the way Vim and Blender are similar. I disagree that the GUI/command line divide is a "surface appearance". I'm not talking about Vim/VS Code kind of thing, where one is implemented in the command line, the other in the GUI, but are basically the same. I'm talking about apps which fundamentally require a pointing device. In Photoshop you point at a pixel and say "do something here", in command line ImageMagick you say "x=100 y=200". This is not a trivial difference to me, it changes everything and generates different usage scenarios.
  - kragen 7y ago
    Vim is not a command-line program. It's a screen editor. The command-line equivalents are Perl, ex, and sed. I agree that writing +100+200x17x25 is a terrible UI design for drawing. But you’ll notice that Vim doesn't use such an interaction design for text; and typing the 100 and 200 into the properties box of a Quartz Composer processing node doesn't make it any better. So it sounds like you're attacking a straw man, maybe unintentionally.
    - investinme 7y ago
      I'm not sure what I'm attacking, certainly not Vim. I'm just saying that you can perfectly use Vim without a mouse, in fact most guides recommend you to disable mouse (and cursor) support. But you can't use Photoshop or Blender without a mouse. Sure, you technically can, in a limited way, you can for example crop images or apply global filters in PS with just the keyboard, the same in Blender, but certain core manipulations are impossible in both without a mouse. I would argue that it's because of the much higher resolution of images/3d data. 80x50 with a 100 character alphabet versus 2000x2000 with a 16.7 mil alphabet. In Vim you say "move the cursor after 'func'". How would that work in Photoshop? "move the cursor after RGB(25, 15, 9) RGB(98, 126, 22)?" You can't even see the pixels in PS, let alone guess their values. There are pixel art editors which are completely usable with just the keyboard, but they are used for images smaller than 256x256.
      - kragen 7y ago
        The best way to use Photoshop without a mouse is to use a Wacom tablet. My Fitts parameter estimates for mouse interaction are terrible, but much better than any keystroke interface I've seen, much less command-line interfaces. You were attacking interactive image editing by typing strings of text: > in command line ImageMagick you say "x=100 y=200". This is not a trivial difference But I don't think anyone really thinks that's a good idea. I agree that direct manipulation is a great benefit, and I don't think there is any plausible alternative for designating positions and especially paths in pixel images the way incremental search provides a better alternative for designating positions in text. Vim in particular is distinguished from vi by supporting more direct-manipulation and noun-verb interaction flows, and vi differed from command-line editors similarly by supporting more immediate feedback and pseudo-direct-manipulation interaction: you would change a word by typing fscwbad ^[ rather than s/strange/bad/^M, for example. I think this is an improvement. I'm continuously kind of appalled that we're carrying around these high-bandwidth multitouch devices all day and apparently the best way we've figured out to take advantage of this situation is one-finger scrolling of lists of pre-existing options, tap-selecting, and a simulated onscreen keyboard, plus the occasional pinch-zoom. I feel like even pictures under glass is about 10 years overdue for some new UI paradigms to take advantage of the new possibilities of the medium. I wonder if there's a way to describe and interactively refine descriptions of areas of interest in a symbolic way—as Lisp trees if not Unix strings—maybe using existing neural networks. Certainly a speculative idea, of course.

kragen 7y ago

It sounds like you're being confused by the surface appearance of things, rather than paying attention to their fundamental nature. Maybe that's why you weren't able to understand the arrogant Vim guy's utterance and wrote him off as delusional instead of figuring out in what sense he might be saying something true. It's good that you did figure it out eventually even if you couldn't hear it from him. Unix wasn't distinguished from other contemporary systems by not using a GUI. With a few visionary exceptions like NLS/Augment, SKETCHPAD, Spacewar!, and GENESYS, computers didn't have GUIs when Unix was born. The Unix philosophy wasn't about using textual commands. Every computer used textual commands except desk calculators. It was about a uniform interface that permits unrestricted composition of orthogonal software components, easy and expressive automation of routine tasks, and prioritizing usability over absolute computational efficiency. These are not, to put it mildly, Photoshop’s strong points.

investinme 7y ago
I understand your point about Vim not following Unix philosophy, also the way Vim and Blender are similar. I disagree that the GUI/command line divide is a "surface appearance". I'm not talking about Vim/VS Code kind of thing, where one is implemented in the command line, the other in the GUI, but are basically the same. I'm talking about apps which fundamentally require a pointing device. In Photoshop you point at a pixel and say "do something here", in command line ImageMagick you say "x=100 y=200". This is not a trivial difference to me, it changes everything and generates different usage scenarios.
- kragen 7y ago
  Vim is not a command-line program. It's a screen editor. The command-line equivalents are Perl, ex, and sed. I agree that writing +100+200x17x25 is a terrible UI design for drawing. But you’ll notice that Vim doesn't use such an interaction design for text; and typing the 100 and 200 into the properties box of a Quartz Composer processing node doesn't make it any better. So it sounds like you're attacking a straw man, maybe unintentionally.
  - investinme 7y ago
    I'm not sure what I'm attacking, certainly not Vim. I'm just saying that you can perfectly use Vim without a mouse, in fact most guides recommend you to disable mouse (and cursor) support. But you can't use Photoshop or Blender without a mouse. Sure, you technically can, in a limited way, you can for example crop images or apply global filters in PS with just the keyboard, the same in Blender, but certain core manipulations are impossible in both without a mouse. I would argue that it's because of the much higher resolution of images/3d data. 80x50 with a 100 character alphabet versus 2000x2000 with a 16.7 mil alphabet. In Vim you say "move the cursor after 'func'". How would that work in Photoshop? "move the cursor after RGB(25, 15, 9) RGB(98, 126, 22)?" You can't even see the pixels in PS, let alone guess their values. There are pixel art editors which are completely usable with just the keyboard, but they are used for images smaller than 256x256.
    - kragen 7y ago
      The best way to use Photoshop without a mouse is to use a Wacom tablet. My Fitts parameter estimates for mouse interaction are terrible, but much better than any keystroke interface I've seen, much less command-line interfaces. You were attacking interactive image editing by typing strings of text: > in command line ImageMagick you say "x=100 y=200". This is not a trivial difference But I don't think anyone really thinks that's a good idea. I agree that direct manipulation is a great benefit, and I don't think there is any plausible alternative for designating positions and especially paths in pixel images the way incremental search provides a better alternative for designating positions in text. Vim in particular is distinguished from vi by supporting more direct-manipulation and noun-verb interaction flows, and vi differed from command-line editors similarly by supporting more immediate feedback and pseudo-direct-manipulation interaction: you would change a word by typing fscwbad ^[ rather than s/strange/bad/^M, for example. I think this is an improvement. I'm continuously kind of appalled that we're carrying around these high-bandwidth multitouch devices all day and apparently the best way we've figured out to take advantage of this situation is one-finger scrolling of lists of pre-existing options, tap-selecting, and a simulated onscreen keyboard, plus the occasional pinch-zoom. I feel like even pictures under glass is about 10 years overdue for some new UI paradigms to take advantage of the new possibilities of the medium. I wonder if there's a way to describe and interactively refine descriptions of areas of interest in a symbolic way—as Lisp trees if not Unix strings—maybe using existing neural networks. Certainly a speculative idea, of course.