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Air travel is very safe and regulated because of behavior that persisted until recently. It's clear that systemic deviation has happened since the 90s that is l

Air travel is very safe and regulated because of behavior that persisted until recently. It's clear that systemic deviation has happened since the 90s that is leading to a system that can't be trusted in the same way that it could be historically. It's just that these are changes in a complex system that take years to surface as real problems that affect people. As long as financial incentives are so high that they override regulatory concerns as they do now, punishment is certainly in order. It's not the kind of thing where you make a change and planes fall out of the sky. No, you make small, gradual changes in processes and in safety margins until at some point in the distant future, planes fail catastrophically as a direct result of decisions made as an organization 1-3 decades ago. It's the same set of behaviors that led to the Challenger disaster.

rootusrootus 7y ago
> Air travel is very safe and regulated because of behavior that persisted until recently Air travel is very safe because the entire world of aviation has focused on analysis and improvement rather than infighting and blaming. If anything, I worry more about how the aviation community worldwide seems to be fragmenting right now, and the effect that may have on safety going forward. But then I do read stories about the FAA and EASA still cooperating very tightly and respectfully, realize most of the infighting is by armchair quarterbacks on the Internet and the pros are still doing the Right Thing, and I sleep a little better.
- jplayer01 7y ago
  > Air travel is very safe because the entire world of aviation has focused on analysis and improvement rather than infighting and blaming Except you have one institution, the FAA, and one company, Boeing, who clearly no longer have a focus on maintaining regulatory processes to keep safety the main priority. While Boeing is cutting corners everywhere in order to save a buck, the FAA is looking the other way and letting Boeing do what they want. This is something that has already had serious consequences, and will continue to unless there are serious changes on a systemic level and there are punishments for those who are responsible for allowing these systemic changes to have occurred. Also, I don't appreciate your underhanded insult. This isn't the place for it.
  - rootusrootus 7y ago
    > Also, I don't appreciate your underhanded insult. This isn't the place for it. Sorry you took that as an insult, it was not intended as such. It's a generic observation that on places like HN we've collectively lost our shit and started acting like we are aeronautical engineers. It's actually one of the big factors that has recently caused me to lose a lot of confidence in the HN crowd. Thought we were above it. Even in middle age it seems I'm still capable of wide-eyed naivete.
    - salawat 7y ago
      >Sorry you took that as an insult, it was not intended as such. It's a generic observation that on places like HN we've collectively lost our shit and started acting like we are aeronautical engineers. It's actually one of the big factors that has recently caused me to lose a lot of confidence in the HN crowd. Thought we were above it. Even in middle age it seems I'm still capable of wide-eyed naivete. Things are getting a little heated, so I just figured I'd chime in, because I've unintentionally become a bit of an expert on this. It is correct that blameless postmortem has been a major contributor to the culture of aviation safety. I don't necessarily question that culture so much as the prevailing executive culture at Boeing since the McDonnell Douglas merger. https://www.mymoneyblog.com/boeing-engineer-dream-job-nightmare.html https://www.mymoneyblog.com/boeing-engineer-dream-job-nightm... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-05-09/former-boeing-engineers-say-relentless-cost-cutting-sacrificed-safety https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-05-09/former-bo... In that case, the aviation safety culture is being undermined by executive pressure, which has been a more recent thing as far as I'm aware from my aviation history deep dive. Boeing only after the merger showed signs of trying to "financially engineer" the company into a vessel of shareholder value growth over and above it's primary mission of making safe, high quality aircraft. In regards to >It's a generic observation that on places like HN we've collectively lost our shit and started acting like we are aeronautical engineers. They who grapple with questions and issues of aeronautical engineering, who run down facts, find evidence, employ sound reasoning to make predictions are, de facto aeronautics engineers in the sense of people doing tasks normally being associated with the responsibility of a practicing aeronautical engineer. They are not a protected class of people, and anyone willing to pick up the tools and use them correctly, basically is one. The protected class is a Professional Engineer (U.S. not sure about anywhere else), who has been granted authority by the State to sign off on Engineering projects. The elitism communicated by calling someone out for not being a practitioner in their day job is not desirable or conducive to fruitful discussion, and is regularly frowned upon. One doesn't pop out of the womb an engineer after all, so drawing such lines only serves to discourage inquisitive minds.

rootusrootus 7y ago

> Air travel is very safe and regulated because of behavior that persisted until recently Air travel is very safe because the entire world of aviation has focused on analysis and improvement rather than infighting and blaming. If anything, I worry more about how the aviation community worldwide seems to be fragmenting right now, and the effect that may have on safety going forward. But then I do read stories about the FAA and EASA still cooperating very tightly and respectfully, realize most of the infighting is by armchair quarterbacks on the Internet and the pros are still doing the Right Thing, and I sleep a little better.

jplayer01 7y ago
> Air travel is very safe because the entire world of aviation has focused on analysis and improvement rather than infighting and blaming Except you have one institution, the FAA, and one company, Boeing, who clearly no longer have a focus on maintaining regulatory processes to keep safety the main priority. While Boeing is cutting corners everywhere in order to save a buck, the FAA is looking the other way and letting Boeing do what they want. This is something that has already had serious consequences, and will continue to unless there are serious changes on a systemic level and there are punishments for those who are responsible for allowing these systemic changes to have occurred. Also, I don't appreciate your underhanded insult. This isn't the place for it.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  > Also, I don't appreciate your underhanded insult. This isn't the place for it. Sorry you took that as an insult, it was not intended as such. It's a generic observation that on places like HN we've collectively lost our shit and started acting like we are aeronautical engineers. It's actually one of the big factors that has recently caused me to lose a lot of confidence in the HN crowd. Thought we were above it. Even in middle age it seems I'm still capable of wide-eyed naivete.
  - salawat 7y ago
    >Sorry you took that as an insult, it was not intended as such. It's a generic observation that on places like HN we've collectively lost our shit and started acting like we are aeronautical engineers. It's actually one of the big factors that has recently caused me to lose a lot of confidence in the HN crowd. Thought we were above it. Even in middle age it seems I'm still capable of wide-eyed naivete. Things are getting a little heated, so I just figured I'd chime in, because I've unintentionally become a bit of an expert on this. It is correct that blameless postmortem has been a major contributor to the culture of aviation safety. I don't necessarily question that culture so much as the prevailing executive culture at Boeing since the McDonnell Douglas merger. https://www.mymoneyblog.com/boeing-engineer-dream-job-nightmare.html https://www.mymoneyblog.com/boeing-engineer-dream-job-nightm... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-05-09/former-boeing-engineers-say-relentless-cost-cutting-sacrificed-safety https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-05-09/former-bo... In that case, the aviation safety culture is being undermined by executive pressure, which has been a more recent thing as far as I'm aware from my aviation history deep dive. Boeing only after the merger showed signs of trying to "financially engineer" the company into a vessel of shareholder value growth over and above it's primary mission of making safe, high quality aircraft. In regards to >It's a generic observation that on places like HN we've collectively lost our shit and started acting like we are aeronautical engineers. They who grapple with questions and issues of aeronautical engineering, who run down facts, find evidence, employ sound reasoning to make predictions are, de facto aeronautics engineers in the sense of people doing tasks normally being associated with the responsibility of a practicing aeronautical engineer. They are not a protected class of people, and anyone willing to pick up the tools and use them correctly, basically is one. The protected class is a Professional Engineer (U.S. not sure about anywhere else), who has been granted authority by the State to sign off on Engineering projects. The elitism communicated by calling someone out for not being a practitioner in their day job is not desirable or conducive to fruitful discussion, and is regularly frowned upon. One doesn't pop out of the womb an engineer after all, so drawing such lines only serves to discourage inquisitive minds.